Wow! Just submitted a bid for a dealer, and was told mine was more than twice of another bidder! Holy smokes!
I sure would like to know who this guy is - if he was any good I could just send all my work over there & sit in the shade with some iced tea :)
If our materials were the same price, the guy is charging like $25 an hour labor. I suppose I will just wait - I don't think he'll be around for long.
Kathy
He's either a new guy with no overhead or the dealer is feeding you a line about it so you'll come back and drop your price. Stick to your price, I've got bit too many times re-working an estimate just to get a job. It's not worth it, those are the hardest people to please.
Kyle
My money is on the dealer feeding you a line.
I had a customer once tell me he got a bid and it was much lower then mine. I told him......" wow........you better jump on it then. "
I gave a lot of my work away in the beginning when I first started but wont anymore. I charge a fair price on all my bids and that is it. I wont allow myself to get beat up on price.
I do caution you Kathy not to get involved or caught up in these bidding wars. Figure out what
you want to charge and then charge it and stand firm. There are people like this dealer who will play all kinds of games to beat your price down.
Stand firm and if they don't want to pay it then to hell with them. I have found that people who beat you up on price also tend to be a royal pain in the butt down the road.
Best of luck.
Chris
Hi, I'm new here and just getting started upholstering. I was a custom cabinet maker for years and Im currently working as a graphic artist for a large corporation.
No offence but I just had to respond to someone ditzing 25 bucks an hour
I WISH I MADE 25 BUCKS AN HOUR, I didn't make that much working for the cabinet company and I don't make that as a graphic artist either.
Thanks for letting me know that I won't have a problem being competitive if I ever decide to do upholstery for a living.
If 25 bucks an hour is on top of materials and overhead that's plenty for me
[
No offence but I just had to respond to someone ditzing 25 bucks an hour
I WISH I MADE 25 BUCKS AN HOUR, I didn't make that much working for the cabinet company and I don't make that as a graphic artist either.
Thanks for letting me know that I won't have a problem being competitive if I ever decide to do upholstery for a living.
If 25 bucks an hour is on top of materials and overhead that's plenty for me
[/quote]
Most shops Include Material + Labor. People will argue this all of the time because most mark up their material. But trust me if someone is only charging $25.00 an hour in today's world and he's a legitimate buisness, he's probably only seeing at the most a third of that on his paycheck.
For instance when I was a tool maker in a plastic factory, the rate in which I billed out tooling that I either made new or repaired was $75 per hour. No way did I see that much on Friday's paycheck, not even near the third I mentioned before.
I said before (even if this guy does exist) this guy probably has low overhead, which I do too working out of my shop at home. I still keep my shop expenses seperate from my personal ones. Ex: utilities to the shop, insurance, new tools and equipment, taxes. etc. Yes $25 an hour sounds great especially in the area which I live, but in reality If that's all I charged By the time I paid the shop expenses at the end of the month I'd be living on government cheese
I think you might be underestimating "overhead." Where are you going to work and what are you going to work with? Don't forget travel time, time spent on "free estimates," time returning phone calls, running out for supplies, tools, & repairs, time to keep your books in order, do a little advertising, have a phone, insurance, heat and cool the shop, keep the lights on, the other half of the FICA contribution, workman's comp, health insurance, time off for illness and maybe a few days off once in a while. Oh, and you might need a vehicle big enough to haul things. Count on a business vehicle's insurance being two- to three-times what you might pay on a personal, non-commercial vehicle.
Quote from: zansongs on May 24, 2010, 12:19:34 pm
If 25 bucks an hour is on top of materials and overhead that's plenty for me
Thanks guys!
When he told me that my price was double the other guy's, I thanked him for the opportunity to bid it. I'm not going to play the game...I bid as carefully as I can. I'm willing to bet there was quite a bit of stuff missed in my competitor's bid. I REALLY wanted to ask who this yahoo was that works for almost nothing, but I bit my tongue and didn't ask! I'll probably find out somewhere along the line though.
I agree that you work up a bid you think is fair and if it's not what they want, fine. I am not trying to get rich here, but I am not a charity either.
I know I can't keep the doors open for $25 an hour because I wrote a business plan. It's amazing the stuff you learn writing one of those, even if it's a big pain.
According to our accountant, it is not unusual for an employer to charge out 3X their employee's wages...so if our new friend was making $20 an hour, his/her boss would most likely be charging out $60. It's just the way it is.
I just didn't know someone would be willing to work for that kind of money.
Kathy
My guess is this guy/gal's trying to work their way into a tight market and doesn't really understand all the costs or time involved - ME about 5 years ago. I learned the hard way. I got LOTS of work, all of it underbid and now I know better. It was either change my pricing structure or go under and live off food stamps. What I didn't know at the time was what competitors were charging. That info was hard to come by so I guesstimated and got burned multiple times. Occasionally I still make a mistake, but not nearly as often as I used to.
Stick by your guns. You know what you're worth and if they want cheap stuff, they can just get it off eBay or from China or from people like you're competing with.
June
The misconception that zansongs has about a shop's hourly rate is EXACTLY why I don't quote hourly rates to my customers. I quote an overall price for a job, but I don't feel that they need to be informed as to just how long that job might take me.
The average customer thinks that $10 per hour is plenty for the type of work that we do.
If you are satisfied with an hourly wage, why own your own business? Let someone else do the worrying.
So am i the only one who has called competitor to get an idea of the area pricing I did this when i first started out in NH, and on vacation did the same thing in FL boefore I moved. noy I charge $75 shop rate
Quote from: sofadoc on May 24, 2010, 07:24:19 pm
The misconception that zansongs has about a shop's hourly rate is EXACTLY why I don't quote hourly rates to my customers. I quote an overall price for a job, but I don't feel that they need to be informed as to just how long that job might take me.
some times I wil wait to call a customer to tell them there job is done as i dont want them to think they got ripped off. other times im a softie though like this afternoon, a old fellow come in and wanted some canvas pieces to cover his Coastguard auxillary signs on his boat and a small pennat flag pole cover. I had some scraps and whipped them out while i was chatting with him in about 5 mins. he was going to pay me but i told him no charge. i got a call form his wife later on thanking me also. Yes down the line ill probly get it back from good karma.
Kathy, you may be hearing the truth. I can tell you of 3 competitors, 1 between you and I, that is charging less and 2 more that may not affect you, but I bump into. Also I have found that the canvas shops doing work for dealer-storage facilities charge the dealer 1/2 what they would charge the customer on the dock. This it seems is so the dealer can mark it up and make money, sending more work to the canvas shop, and not make the canvas look to expensive.
And the people who own the big boats know all about overhead and charging, they make their money by keeping it, and work on getting you not to. Now fisherman and pontoon covers, they just want cheap.
Eric
QuoteNo offence but I just had to respond to someone ditzing 25 bucks an hour
I WISH I MADE 25 BUCKS AN HOUR
So don't I. My shop rate is much higher than that, but if that is what I grossed, I would have to pitch in to work here. ;D If you don't understand the difference between gorse and net you will learn the hard way.
Stick to your guns Kathy, if your competition is real and not independently wealthy he, or she will have to raise prices, or starve. I have had several shop in my area come and go, they set up, charge very low prices and usually fold within a year or too.
The basic question related to hourly rate is; as an employee or as a business operation?
Big difference, a business can't survive on $25 per hour. In my area, the zoning codes and other laws would shut you down doing a business in a residential area.
So, go lease a mere 700 or 800 sq. ft. building, and hook it up to utilities and run your cost per hour just to hang a sign. It goes up from there.
If I could go work for $25 per hour as an employee, sell what I have invested, yes I might be better off. Then, I would even get half of my SS paid for. Now............ oh well,
:)
Doyle
I totally understand the difference between gross and net.
I may have misunderstood but Kathy said that "if the materials were the same then the guy was charging 25 an hr labor" My point was that if I can get 25 an hour after expenses, that would work for me, and I am aware that an employer may charge over three times what they pay. I am not completely naive as to the mechanics of enterprise. When I built cabinets on my own I usually charged twice what my materials cost and it worked out pretty well...but that may not apply here.
Like I said, I'm new to this and I have a lot to learn
Hey zansongs> My advice is: Don't charge a lot less than the going rate. Your competition will hate you, and your customers will only take advantage of you. And at the end of your career, you'll look back and regret all the money that you "left on the table". Get all you can while you can.
I don't know any upholsterer that's has trouble sleeping at night because they think they charge too much.
Since you have a background in custom cabinetry, I'm sure that we will appreciate your input on wood finish related problems. Welcome to the forum, and don't hesitate to post questions when you get into the upholstery end of things.
Good luck.
Thats real good advice sofadoc is giving I dont run an upholstery business at this time Im trying to learn trade but, I have done electrical work as a side business for 12 years. When I first started I thought because my overhead was small and I was just working partime I could charge a lower rate than the "big Boys" Im here to tell you it ate me up. I still had to pay for insurance and taxes, buy tools, do bids for free, run after materials, etc. ect. The short version is I worked my butt for about a year and couldnt figure out where all that money went. I wore out my pickup for no charge. I wised up and figured out the "big boys" were alot smarter than me.
I used to chuckle at my dad, when calculating what he needed to charge. He'd say, "You know, when I get to retirement age, I can't go back to my customers and say 'Hey, I didn't charge you enough way back when, so will you give me some more?'"
I sure miss him and his sense of humor.
It's imperative (my word of the day) that you know the going rate for work being done in your area.
As stated here on this thread, there are ways of finding out.
If someone is showing up with 1/2 the cost, and it's less than you can afford to do the work for, there MUST be something going on. Either you overhead is too high, you work to slow, or something! It's your professional job to do the investigative legwork to get to the bottom of things!
I've seen issues like this in the past, and always found out later what was up. In fact, someone here has already left some clues.
Nobody hides from the internet, or the Upholster Message Board!
As I previously stated, I wrote a Business Plan about a year ago. Part of the plan entailed analyzing your competition (my plan must have been OK because I won an award with it). Part of that analysis included finding out what other people charge, as well as advantages/disadvantages they have, their targets, their sales...you get the picture.
The beauty of a Business Plan is that is a living document, and needs to be updated and adjusted often. I suppose it may be time to tweak it? Perhaps...
My overhead is low, so it's not that. Do I work too slowly? ABSOLUTELY. But I don't bid that way. I wouldn't be competitive if I did. So I bid on what time it SHOULD take, then work like a bat out of you know where to make my time. It might not be the best way to do it, but that's how I do it. I figure I will speed up, and I am.
A couple things come to mind. I was trained pretty "high-end". When I look around at some of the work being done, I can see where some people would definitely be cheaper. But I'm not going to do that. On the other hand, I am all about learning some new techniques that might save time/material without doing sub-par work. One of these is to learn patterning, something that has been discussed many times on the boards. I learned the blanket method, which typically uses more material than patterning, but I'm thinking I want to put patterning into my repertoire. There is a place for both.
Remember, I've been at this for just under two years, so I've got a long way to go. But I do bid carefully, I know what my competition is doing (other than the loose cannon described above, if he even EXISTS), and I love, love, love learning! That's why I come here.
So, my point is (and was in starting this thread) that: a) some people are willing to work for almost nothing OR b) some dealers will tell you anything! I wasn't and am not complaining, because I am plenty busy and don't need the work. That is another reason that I'm sure I'm not pricing myself out of the market!
"Nobody hides from the internet, or the Upholster Message Board!" Not sure what this means - should I be scared?
Cheers!
Kathy
I have a rule...........never tell anyone what your labor rate is. I have better things to do then go into a long drawn out explanation of why my labor rate is so high. Customers simply cannot see all the costs associated with this business and equate your labor rate to what they are getting paid.
When I bill or quote a job I do it as a total with no mention of labor or hours involved. Most of my customers could careless anyways. All they are thinking about is what the total bill is going to be.
Chris
Tons of labor pricing tips! I'll be sure and have things like this while I'm writing my business plan.
I can speak from the consumer side of things as far as labor rates go. Until a few years ago (young thinking) was if I ever got into any labor business, I would charge cheaply. But now that I know what is involved with cost, there is no way I would charge cheaply, as in no competitor could compete. The older I get it seems my time becomes worth more. And I'm not afraid of not getting business by not charging "competitively".
I've learned that "competitive pricing" doesn't mean pricing you competition out of the market, but being up on what the competitors charge, and pricing accordingly.
To the question: "working too cheap?"
I never know until I am done, most times it takes a little longer to do a job than I estimated. There can be so many variances to a custom shop job, even the repair work.
I just read an article in the Restoration and Rods mag and what came out in one persons experience that in the business climate today (probably yesterday and tomorrow) is there isn't much room for margins. You have to bid it close and do it the best way and quality as you can hoping to come out close to the bid hours. In there words, it is the nature of the beast, the difficulty of bidding accurately (your hours) on every job.
I can identify with that article because of the variances in my jobs, simple things like the machine is messing up and I have to take time to go through the routine required to get it back in good working order. The phone, gosh I like new business but can't they wait until I get this job done. ;)
Kathy, sure wish I could read that award winning business plan you have, I am sure it would be informative and offer better understanding of estimating cost. Is is on file somewhere? Stick to your guns, sounds like your on pretty solid ground, ground your father would have or does approve. :)
Doyle
My goal is to NOT be the cheapest, but to be the MOST EXPENSIVE :o with the BEST quality. I want to do the kind of quality that when someone sees my work, they will go out of their way to find me to work on their project. 8)
Kathy, I'd be interested in seeing a how to for a business plan too. That's something I never sat down and tried to figure out how to do, but sounds like it would be very beneficial in projecting your costs and profits.
Bobby,
"My goal is to NOT be the cheapest, but to be the MOST EXPENSIVE with the BEST quality. I want to do the kind of quality that when someone sees my work, they will go out of their way to find me to work on their project. "
That is exactly what I want as well.
In January 09, I took an Entrepreneurial Training Class through our local Business Development Center. It was a class developed by NxLeveL (www.nxlevel.org) and ran 10 weeks. At the end of that class, we had two months to complete our business plan.
The class cost $1,000, but Wisconsin had a grant available for $750 of that, provided you turned in a viable plan. The best plan not only received the grant, but a cash prize and an advertising package.
Looking back, I don't think I'd have needed to take the class, although there is so much information there and I really did learn a lot...but there are lots of places you can go online to write a plan. The most amount of time isn't in writing it as much as researching it. I think I almost did nothing for six weeks than work on it. I'm pretty good with numbers, but my financials were a bit of a mess until my college sophomore Accounting Major son helped me with it.
The most interesting aspect of the plan I turned in is that, one year later, it doesn't look a whole lot like my original plan at all! That is not unusual. BUT the value is in the research - how many boats are in your area and what type, how much is spent on customer's boats, how much your competitors are doing, how many employees they have, etc. It forces you to look at who your customer is going to be, even to their education level and income, how many kids, etc. Like I said, it was pretty comprehensive.
The other eye-opener was completing the financials - cash flow projections really wake you up! Since I spent a lot of time on those, those are actually pretty accurate, even though you are estimating.
If you want to write a plan, it might not hurt to visit your local Small Business Development Center. They will guide you in the right direction and if you want to do a plan on your own, it won't cost a thing.
I have not published my plan because there is a lot of personal information in there...my own personal financials are part of the plan, my financing plans, and juicy tidbits about my competition ;) Well, ok, not juicy tidbits, but stuff that I would prefer not to publicize!
Best of luck! And even though it'll make you want to tear out your hair, I think you'll ultimately know your business in a way you didn't before (we had lots of current business owners taking the class, too!)
Kathy
I had a guy tell me he had prices way higher and lower then me the other day. he still working out a warrenty issues so i didnt get a yes or no :-\
Many years back i had a customer tell me another guy would do the job cheaper than me. I told them thanks for the oppurtunity to bid it but good luck on their job. A while later i had the chance to see some of the competitors work, needless to say it gave me a good chuckle. A simple door panel, no pleats or different materials and it was wrinkles and loose. Needless to say i never worried about being outbid by them again. Being in a small town, 60-80 miles from the bigger cities, upholsterers are few and far between here. So not really anyone to check on prices with that are close.
Terry
Kathy,
Thanks for the info. I will check to see what is offered locally through the small business center. I think I remember a few years back that a friend of mine said that the Jaycees taught it's members that kind of thing, but I'm 10 years past the Jaycees cutoff age! ;D I always looked at the local Jaycees as more of the partying crowd than the working crowd anyway.
The nice thing about starting a business part time, while continuing to work full time, is I can afford to make a few mistakes while learning.
To add to $25 per hour conversation: nobody mention the time you spend on working with customers, paperwork and ordering parts and materials - this is the biggest expense if you do not have anybody handling it for you. The other day I realized that I have spent 2-3 hours on actual upholstery work, working with customers, giving quotes and other stuff that had to be taken care of. So at $25 per hour I would make $75/day minus all the usual expenses. I found this remark that $25/hour is plenty - SHOCKING.
Hey "noname", where you been? You burst on the scene a few months ago with some interesting rants, and then vanished. At the time, I sensed from reading your posts, that you were beginning to sour on the upholstery biz. Thought maybe you moved on to something else. Still banging on couches?
Good to hears its booming Ivanoname