Anyone know one of these people well enough to describe their activity, qualifications, and business or employment benefits and success?
Do they typically work for themselves, out of their home, or a fabric retailer or perhabs a wholesaler?
Anyone know of a forum they frequent?
From this advantage, little is know about them. All that is mentioned is "my decorator" selected this or these fabrics.
Back 20 years ago, when the housing boom existed, there was one renown decorator in this larger community/city. Designer, to me, speaks more to being an interior architect than fabric and color selections.
I used to have decorators seeking my labor support, but their success was limited to what lower income clients could afford, which wasn't any more than color selectors. There apparently was not enough money in that level of the industry to pay for shop rates. There has to be exceptions.
Is there any informative experience/information that might be posted?
It could be interesting.
Doyle
You hit the nail on the head Doyle.
There are decorators, who are nothing more than "color selectors".
Then, there are designers who can redesign the whole house "from stem to stern".
Many decorators prefer the term "designer", just like a used car dealer prefers the term "pre-owned".
I don't call myself a "Master upholsterer", because I never had any formal training, or apprenticeship. But many upholsterers who've been doing this work for 10 years or more consider themselves to be one.
Decorators around here are mostly designer wannabes. But for the most part, they just scour the bargain bins at the fabric outlets just like everyone else.
I knew a few designer type people that belonged to this forum:
http://forums.chfindustry.com/
My request for membership was never approved. I don't know whether or not that forum has gone stagnant like so many discussion boards.
You might have better luck searching for a Facebook group that's mainly comprised of decorators.
sofa d wrote:
QuoteI don't call myself a "Master upholsterer", because I never had any formal training, or apprenticeship.
I have had training and even an apprenticeship on putting worms and other types of bait on hooks for fishing. :o
OK. Back to the topic...
There is no designation for "Master upholsterer" here in the good ol' US of A. It does tend to convey the impression that the person has a lot of experience. However, anyone can call themselves a Master Upholsterer. It's kind of like calling your shop a 'studio' instead of a 'shop'. ;D
Sofa d's comments about the two extremes are my experience also. I don't see many who only pick out colors. They tend to be price oriented and stick mainly to window treatments, and sometimes carpet and painting walls.
Quotetheir activity:
From helping customers' pick out fabrics to designing rooms and even the entire house from floor to ceiling. Color, texture, period, style, etc. Window treatments, carpet, wood, marble, paint, etc.
Quotequalifications:
self taught to college degree. Everyone should at least know how to use a color wheel. Some used to own window treatment work rooms and got tired or too old for the physical work and had learned enough about ID to go into that business. I can honestly say that every ID I work with has impressed me with the things they can do.
Quotebusiness or employment benefits:
Most are self employed but there are a few big ID companies in town. Furniture stores sometimes use their sales people as IDs for furniture. Some will get into window treatments and upholstery but not many.
Quotesuccess?
I have customers who work part time whenever they get a client. I have customers who are flown to their customers second and third homes all over the country. One I know went to Europe for a customer.
QuoteDo they typically work for themselves, out of their home, or a fabric retailer or perhaps a wholesaler?
See above. Many work out of their home since they go to the homeowners house, and some have retail offices or studios where they display their catalogs and such.
QuoteAnyone know of a forum they frequent?
I don't know of any forum. But the good ID's are constantly looking at web sites all the time to see what new and exciting. I get links sent to me all the time. I recently got a link and was asked if I could make the cornice board in the picture. I just finished it today. Google for ID blogs and you may find a few.
QuoteFrom this advantage, little is know about them. All that is mentioned is "my decorator" selected this or these fabrics.
I work directly with the IDs. I don't often get a homeowner calling me about their furniture and the fabric they got from an ID.
QuoteI used to have decorators seeking my labor support, but their success was limited to what lower income clients could afford, which wasn't any more than color selectors. There apparently was not enough money in that level of the industry to pay for shop rates. There has to be exceptions.
I have a few IDs who work with middle to middle upper clients. Most work with upper clients.
QuoteIs there any informative experience/information that might be posted?
I do not compete with other upholsterers. I compete with the homeowner deciding to buy new, high end furniture, or deciding not to reupholster. Most furniture I do is antiquish or high end when it was originally bought.
QuoteIt could be interesting.
I love working with IDs. I get to work with new fabrics (newest and often highest quality) all the time. The quality of the fabrics is awesome. My entire focus with IDs is to help them make money. If I can do this and make money myself, it's a win / win for everyone.
When I came into this business 9 years ago I saw a lot of negativity between IDs and upholsterers. Well earned from both sides, I think. I found a way to turn that into a benefit for me. I work for the IDs. I am their upholsterer. They are my customer and I try to make them look great to their homeowner customers.
When an ID does a room or several rooms or an entire house, there are thousands of details that they must keep track of. I take care of all the details for their upholstery and cornice boards. They never have to worry about the upholstery. I do that for them. Why would they want to spend time shopping for a better price that may save them a few bucks.
You can always get a lower price but what will it cost you?
gene
PS: This is my experience in my little town. It's my impression that other towns can be very different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9-pDSYPrio
Gene's reply was great. As in any profession there are talented individuals and those who are not so accomplished.
I love working with IDs, too. They are generally polished, prepared, and specific as to what they expect from me. They tend to listen to my expertise with respect to specific techniques or suggestions to streamline fabrication.
My own experience is that decorators tend to cater to lower income brackets and I find the amount of "haggling" over what sort of deal I'm willing to cut them on my work a bit tedious. It's been a lot of years since I worked for $10/hr. and I have no intention to return to that time just so the "middle man" can make his margin.
That said, I have a friend who is a decorator and who is amazingly talented! She's been at it for 50 yrs. and her depth of color savvy, and her ability to use paint, wallpaper, fine fabrics, associated trims in interesting combination never ceases to amaze me. She was one of the people who encouraged me to get into slipcovering and to master the art of fitting them precisely. Her advice was that while they don't appeal to all, well made, properly fitted slipcovers will always have a niche and should be part of my repertoire.
I "hear" you people, very good feedback. It convinces that an upholster/ID relationship can be a good match up when conducted in an upscale market. As an upholster in that market, my ego would not suffer. Intuitively, it would develop into a continuous learning experience with a higher return in an upscale market.
There would be no business status quo, both ID/upholster are both in an ever challenging market as concepts change, products change, which undoubtedly would drive changes in the technology and understanding of both in the jobs they do. For the upholster, involved in that relationship, the business challenges remain as it does in a very diversfied business such as mine. To simplify, the products the upholster works on certainly change or become additive to the mix of items worked on. Plus, new skills and techniques are required as the creativitiy and newer products demand.
As in any business, the level of quality in Id and decorators will vary. So, hitching your wagon with one of the best will drive your own success, as well as your attitude and performance in an ID/upholster relationship.
Are most ID/decorators formally trained? Generally, where would this start - college(specialty)? I would think most, many, or a high percent are; but an interested mind could get into the upper ranks by ambition and concentrated job performance.
In my work, everyday is a continuous learning process, one never learns it all but the important thing is to keep on "learning". Same for ID/Decorator/Upholster, otherwise they would become dated-out of place in date and time.
Good thread!
Doyle
Would you guys say that the more upscale designers in your areas prefer an upholstery workroom that is basically anonymous to the general public?
My experience around here, is the higher end ID's don't really care for the fact that I have a commercial storefront. They don't want Joe Public knowing where to go when they want to bypass them.
I've had a few upscale ID's in the past. I always ended up forsaking my "off the street" customers in order to cater to their every whim. But in a town this size, their clientele dries up pretty fast, and they move on. And frankly, when the smoke cleared, and the dust settled, working for ID's was no more profitable than working for Joe Public. Sure there was more money. BUT there was also more time (time took away from regular customers).
I recently had an opportunity to take on a VERY upscale ID. I met with her in her client's home in a very affluent section of Dallas. After talking with her for a while, I realized that I would have to expand everything in my business in order to serve her. Hire employees, add equipment, machines, and vehicles. She was already working with a large upholstery shop, and I suspect that she was just trying to cut a better deal..........as they say on Shark Tank...... "I'm out!"
Quote from: sofadoc on December 17, 2013, 09:45:17 amI knew a few designer type people that belonged to this forum:
http://forums.chfindustry.com/
My request for membership was never approved. I don't know whether or not that forum has gone stagnant like so many discussion boards.
That's odd. You should have been approved. However, there was a time when ownership of the CHF school (which owns and runs the forum) was going through some changes. Things were a little unsettled, and you may have fallen through the cracks.
Definitely not a stagnant board. Membership is not free, by the way...
She has a pleasant speaking voice, but singing sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard. (Another metaphor that will soon be arcane.) I couldn't make it very far through.
Quote from: gene on December 18, 2013, 05:32:14 pm
PS: This is my experience in my little town. It's my impression that other towns can be very different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9-pDSYPrio
Quote from: Dede on December 19, 2013, 07:42:34 am
Quote from: sofadoc on December 17, 2013, 09:45:17 amI knew a few designer type people that belonged to this forum:
http://forums.chfindustry.com/
My request for membership was never approved. I don't know whether or not that forum has gone stagnant like so many discussion boards.
That's odd. You should have been approved. However, there was a time when ownership of the CHF school (which owns and runs the forum) was going through some changes. Things were a little unsettled, and you may have fallen through the cracks.
Definitely not a stagnant board. Membership is not free, by the way...
Thanks Dede. I tried again, and got approved for a free trial membership immediately.
Doyle, Gene, Bobbin: if you guys haven't already seen this forum, you might want to check it out. During the free trial period, you can view posts, but you can't reply to them. The membership fee is $36. I assume that is for a year?
I'll be checking it out during my trial period, and decide if I want to join. It might be the type of forum (for networking with ID's) that Doyle is looking for.
Doyle, it's my understanding that "interior designers" are formally recognized and that passage of a formal examination required. I don't know, however, if a formal 4 yr. college program is required to take the examination or if a degree in ID is available. I would expect students of architecture with a strong propensity for "fine arts" would be most highly represented in the ranks of certified Interior Designers.
Decorators have no "formal" certificate. With no "skin in the fight" I have every confidence that there are plenty of "hacks" to offset the technical brilliance of the friend I referenced above. But a thorough understanding of color theory, some "vision", and the ability to put together a "story board" is an excellent start.
Interior designers, are licensed and have the knowledge and schooling to work with all aspects of building, working with all contractors and architects. They work with the customer on plumbing, electrical, cabinet making, Kitchen design, just everything. They design the house or whatever. The upholstery and window treatments are just a drop in the bucket for them. If I call a ID a decorator they get all pissy. A decorator will sell upholstery and drapes as their bread and butter and pick out lamps and pictures and such, no license required. I work with both, I have to here (island), back in central NY I never worked with them, they promise customers things that should NEVER be promised!! If you want to get a name for yourself really fast work with both and as you get better known you can choose to continue to work with them or not. I am new to my area just a year but I have picked you both ID and decorator from several states because their clients own a home here. I hope this helps you out, and I hope I answered your question. I have been upholstering since 1981 and have taught the trade. I had a German master teach me, but I will never call myself a Master but others have. I was taught the old ways, spit tacks, hand sewn horse hair, etc., etc.. but I will use modern day supplies and staples every chance I get, I am sure if they had what we have today, they would have used them. Wish you and everyone here a very Merry Christmas and Happy successful Year!!
That description and comments about comparing ID and Decorators added a lot to understanding and actually appreciating both of those professional functions.
In a sense, most of the needs and opportunities in home upholstery updates fall more in the decorator's capacity. That said to say; I understand the capacity of an ID is working in conjunction with the entire building interior design. Never thought much about them getting involved in plumbing, electrical, and floor planning, but why not? That is their title.
The decorator offers assistance in redoing all the soft furnishings and window decorating into the home, which should be the bigger market than involvement in technical design and equipments.
In that perspective, the decorators do have an important challenge of redoing/updating parts of a home. Logically, a good decorator is more than a color matcher.
Since the ID is certified (has training and been tested) it would seem their engagement in decorator could be an over kill. Particularly if there is sufficient ID market to keep them busy. In a literal sense, either person could be effective "decorating" on a professsional level and the best, like anything would be their proven success and following in the activity of selecting fabrics and color for a living room or doing window treatments. Flip the issue around, ID's would be expected to be the choice service for truly architectural related issues, because that is their training and certification. To fully understand this practical overview of their comparison, follow on:
The key in selecting either support is to get one that is "good" at what they do, title isn't as important, I suppose.
Therefore, an upholster who can make money with either should be a good connection. Why not? As a consumer I would not want a wannabe upholster no more than the same type of ID or Decorator. Gets back in a sense also the the theory of WOM (word of mouth).
A relationship between a good Decorator and Upholster could be a win-win, like Gene said. This does not suggest such a relationship for all upholsters is essential, different issue. Upholsters can decorate too and meet most of their shop needs in terms of selecting materials and suggesting colors, most of their sample books carry photos of suggestion of what goes and looks nice. After all, there is subjectivity involved and a lot of it.
Thanks Chrisberry and also a best wishes to you this holiday and the following year.
Doyle
My shop is almost exclusively a work room now. I do work for a number of designers and decorators and really I am fairly happy with the arrangement. I do loose out on fabric sales but absolutely charge for every little extra that is often overlooked or assumed was included. This just kind of happened at the same time I had my accident and now I just don`t have to deal with customers which suits me just fine. I have no patience anymore and a lousy customer will ruin me for a day or two now I don`t have to worry about that anymore. I have a no way you could screw this up agreement with my designers and they have no grey areas to hide in if theres a problem. One thing I started doing because of one customer is keeping the old cover in shop until paid so if theres any question as to how the previous job was done I have the old cover to lay on the new cover problem solved, haven't need it much but saves alot of grief and time when you do need it. To me less time dealing with customers not making money equals more time in the shop turning a profit.
west coast - how is pricing handled or agreed upon?
You work for several, you say.
How does that playout; you are the only upholstery that several use or one of several upholsters supporting several ID/decorators?
I suppose working for several, you note a different market among them, meaning some higher scale and some lower?
Doyle
My pricing is based on the pictures they provide via email. I give them my charge for labour and then price for retrying springs, new foam touch ups etc. I try to get the fabric pic included in the original email request for quote so I can see if its rr or up the roll.
I am one of only a few work rooms and the designers are mostly loyal to me, there's one or two that kind of float between us but that's ok we all need to eat.
There is a definite swing in clientele between the d's some have real fussy customers others not so much but rightly or wrongly I think my work is good enough for them all.
In the end though you are only as good as your last job and if they get po'd at you for whatever reason your fault or not they hold the trump card and could go to the other guy and if all your work is done through the d's that could be a problem. I have one particular lady who never sends a pic just sends the work. She never asks if I'm busy or my schedule the stuff just arrives however she pays very quickly and always pays way more than I would have quoted so I never complain about lack of communication and she complains about anything so she is as happy as I am win win.
Thanks for the details of relationships with the others you work with, one can make it work and good things seam to happen.
Doyle
West Coast, your last comment confirms you and the decorator are in a win-win situation. As a result, your incentive is to make her as happy as possible. She must be good because her actions exude confidence and success. Two or three like her would keep you busy, one would think.
Doyle
Doyle you are absolutely correct. The real kind of background issue here is a lot of the designers in my area are more interested in a quick buck by selling draperies and rods. They do not seem to put an effort into the upholstery sale although they all have plenty of samples and knowledge. I just keep weeding them out and really try to help the ones that are willing to work with me and what I'm trying to do.
Reg
Our experience with "designers" has been all over the place. We have some basic rules when it comes to working with them. Number one is, our price is our price, we don't negotiate it. Seems like most we have encountered want to beat us up on pricing and do the work for next to nothing. We have plenty of work (very blessed to say that) so we can pass on tese types.
Secondly, we have to approve of the fabric before we will take the job. Too many experienses with fabrics that are not suitable for upholstery. and lastly, they have to work in our time frame. We won't push others aside to do their work, it's not good for our reputation.
We do have a few who are very good to work with so we can't lump them all in the same lot. Proceed with caution, interview them as well as they interview you and spell things out from the start and you'll do fine.
This, collectively, is a good feedback, to me anyway. Like Chuck explained, it just depends on the ID and perhaps the upholsterer. Can't generalize.
In a good market, and both very professional (upholsterer, Designer), the team could make it very interesting.
I have gained more respect for the decorator in this feedback, like everyone is saying, especially if the Decorator is really good at the game, it can work.
The market around has a lot to do with what the business can be made into.
Doyle
Quote from: Chuck D on January 05, 2014, 10:02:24 am
........interview them as well as they interview you and spell things out from the start and you'll do fine.
I think that's the best advice so far.
Any time a decorator/designer calls me for the first time, the first thought that goes through my head is "Somewhere, there's another upholsterer who is sick of putting up with her".
Of course, that isn't always the case. But if they ARE changing upholsterers, I would like to know why.
Yes, interview and communicate.
Which ever one a shop works for, it has to be where the money potential is there for both. Both have to make money for it to be worth doing.
Doyle
Gene has mentioned a few times that he's gotten several designers' work because he has a smoke-free shop and the designer got tired of sending furniture that smelled like an ash tray to clients.
Just saying, it's a two way street. Sometimes the designer fires the upholsterer and sometimes the upholsterer fires the designer.
Quote from: sofadoc on January 06, 2014, 09:19:37 am
Quote from: Chuck D on January 05, 2014, 10:02:24 am
........interview them as well as they interview you and spell things out from the start and you'll do fine.
I think that's the best advice so far.
Any time a decorator/designer calls me for the first time, the first thought that goes through my head is "Somewhere, there's another upholsterer who is sick of putting up with her".
Of course, that isn't always the case. But if they ARE changing upholsterers, I would like to know why.
Quote from: byhammerandhand on January 06, 2014, 09:30:40 am
Gene has mentioned a few times that he's gotten several designers' work because he has a smoke-free shop and the designer got tired of sending furniture that smelled like an ash tray to clients.
While growing up in the family upholstery business, my step-dad used to hang out at the shop all day. He was slightly handicapped, so he couldn't walk very well. But he could certainly sit at the desk, and light one cigarette right off the other. He was a hardcore 3 pack a day man. Many customers complained (to no avail) about the smell. My mother insisted that he sit there and smoke, because the alternative was that he would go to a bar before noon and start drinking.
Sometimes the smoke was so thick in the shop that I would almost barf up a lung.
He used to send off for free cigarette coupons. He would use my name/address as well so he could get more coupons. To this day, I still get junk mail from tobacco companies.
Smoking eventually killed him. He died of emphysema........ at the age of 89.
He was still puffing away right to the bitter end.
I just sold a huge job (posh marina referral). Feedback was that my shop was clean, organized, "smoke free", and so was I. I can tell you that the designers I work for take all that in! One of the things I've found most difficult is competing with "back roomers" (cheap labor, no taxes!). "Just say, NO" and "stand your ground" is not so easy when you have bills to pay and a meagre checking account balance (or you're watching your "seed money" dwindle), but it's precisely what you have to do to gain credibility with the professionals. Oh, and you have to deliver great work, on time, and within your estimate. But that's not so hard if you have experience and you quantify your expenses/materials (you can't "guesstimate"!).
I was "turned down" on a lot of work last year... "too expensive". But I sucked it up and refused to "cave" on price. It seems word has gotten around and the calls I've received recently are not nearly as "shocked" by the estimates as they were last year.
I think Gene says something like, "My goal is not to be the cheapest, but the best."
Quote from: bobbin on January 16, 2014, 07:31:26 am
I just sold a huge job (posh marina referral). Feedback was that my shop was clean, organized, "smoke free", and so was I. I can tell you that the designers I work for take all that in! One of the things I've found most difficult is competing with "back roomers" (cheap labor, no taxes!). "Just say, NO" and "stand your ground" is not so easy when you have bills to pay and a meagre checking account balance (or you're watching your "seed money" dwindle), but it's precisely what you have to do to gain credibility with the professionals. Oh, and you have to deliver great work, on time, and within your estimate. But that's not so hard if you have experience and you quantify your expenses/materials (you can't "guesstimate"!).
I was "turned down" on a lot of work last year... "too expensive". But I sucked it up and refused to "cave" on price. It seems word has gotten around and the calls I've received recently are not nearly as "shocked" by the estimates as they were last year.
It's scary to "play chicken" when you know how depleted your reserves are, Hammer..
I've never doubted my technical savvy. Nor the options the mechanical diversity of my "Armada" offers. But "just saying, 'NO'!" has proven the hardest part of self-employment for me.
"Cast not thine pearls before swine"
(yeah, right! if you've positioned yourself to do so! and you have the stomach to actually say, NO!)
Quote from: bobbin on January 16, 2014, 08:16:15 am
But "just saying, 'NO'!" has proven the hardest part of self-employment for me.
True! Because there is always
someone down the block that will say "Yes".
This truly is a great compilation and insight into creating relationships between businesses. I believe in the win-win and with now having a bit of better understanding hope to connect with some of these folks, as I too love working with designer fabrics and concepts. Good luck to others who choose to build these in-direct client access . . . AND thanks Doyle for getting the conversation started.
Marlo
Sorry I'm a little late to the conversation I haven't been on line . But I feel I have a lot of experience on this subject . Before I moved Designers made up a large part of my cliental most where very loyal and provided me with more work than I could handle . Some where demanding but I never had to negotiate pricing with them. As long as you do good work and are professional you should have a good long lasting relationship. One designer I still stay in contact with has been sending me work for 30 years.
I will agree a lot of them do not want you to advertise on who you are or were your located .
But it is possible to do work with the general public and designers they are business people just like you and know you have bills to pay.
There is a different between schooled designers and decorators but both can provide you with a lot of work. Check with your local design studio for a list of register designer or with the ASID.
Before rejecting the idea of working with a designer, remember people who hire a designer usually do not take cost into consideration.
In your support work, who does the pickup and hauling of the furniture?
Doyle
pick up and delivery depends on the client. Since we are talking designers/decorators, if they live here on Island they take care of that but if they are out of state or Off the Cape then I take care of that. It is different from job to job, like anything. Actually everything about the business is so much different here then on mainland. I am on an island so the whole trade is different, busy time is summer, slow time is the holidays and starts to pick up now.
I am not an upholsterer.
I always prefer to have a piece requiring a slipcover in my shop. But, I have no desire to go into the "furniture moving" business and I also understand that slipcover customers don't wish to surrender a significant part of a room's seating capacity for a more than a couple of days, if at all. I pattern in the customer's home. And I get wonderful results. I can pattern just about anything accurately. And do it efficiently. Time is money, afterall! For me it's more about good marketing.
I can readily understand Bobbins point. I get repair request that I can do in less than an hour. To merely truck it to the shop and return would cost much more than fixing or repairing on a mobile basis. Customers love it, the negative is finding someone at home.
Doyle