Y'all know that we adopted Joe Cocker the end of January. I need SERIOUS help here!
We're signed up for obedience class but that's not until May 12th. Not sure if we can survive that long with the boy.
Breed lines are lab retriever/blue heeler and it's the blue heeler that is causing the problems from my reading. It is in their blood to herd. How do they herd? By nipping/biting the heels of cattle until they herd in the proper direction. Joe has no cattle to herd so he is trying to herd Bob & I. Also jumping on Jimmy's very bad 12-1/2 year old hips. That is an attempt to become the alpha male IMO. Jim is not a dominant dog. Carly was the alpha when we had the two of him.
Joe is super smart. Learned sit in three tries. Housebroken in about 10 days. While he was teething, I went through a large box of band-aids in less than a month and it wasn't from my upholstery work. My fingers, back of my hands, arms up to my elbows were a bloody mess. Down, stop, no have no effect on Joe. I've popped him on the nose (something I abhor doing) with no results. That was not a hard pop, just enough to get his attention. He's now through teething but still is nipping/biting and much to my chagrin has learned to pinch my skin between his teeth. Hurts like the devil and immediately bruises. So now it looks like Bob is grabbing me hard and dragging me around. Great! : (
Bob's kid brother has taken his two mastiffs through the course and came over to give me some pointers. I bought a choke for Joe. Works wonders on walks. Before the choke chain, I was just about being drug by Joe if he saw another dog, bird, squirrel, blowing leaves, you get the drift. Now, he'll do that once or twice early on in the walk and then settles down and we have nice long walks. I walk him afternoon and early evening to help him blow off steam. I'm also doing tear-out in the mornings on our patio table in the back yard so that he can get the squirrliness out of his system.
George told me that when he does a negative behavior, I should grab the chain and pull hard enough to get his attention. Did that when he insisted on pinching my arms yesterday while I was dusting low-level. Worked like a charm and he stopped in his tracks. Later, out in the yard, he decided to dig a 3 foot hole in 2 seconds flat. I blew over to where he was digging so that I could pull the choke while he was transgressing. He saw me coming and began to jump at me mouth open. Please remember that I was attacked by a chocolate lab 3 years ago and while I've come a long way since the attack, this sends chills down my spine in addition to flashbacks of the attack. Reading says that when they do this, you turn your back to the animal and continue to do that until they quit leaping at you. I did that last night for at least 5 minutes and he just kept charging me. I don't think he was attacking me just didn't want me to choke him and he's very high-spirited but ....
Any tips out there or is this just a losing proposition? Bob is ready to take him back but we have a deal that Joe goes through obedience training and if we don't get the desired results after training, then he goes back. Despite all of his negative behaviors and scaring the crap out of me when he does the jump thing (he's done it before last night but last night was the most extreme it's been), I love him to pieces and when he's not in "crazy train" mode, he can be so totally loving and affectionate. I cannot stand the thought of taking him back but this isn't good for any of us.
Thanks!
Virginia
First is no jumping on anyone, anything, unless you are in total control and at least 2 years of training with that dog.
Second was the dog aggressive with the mouth open jumping and or wanting to give affection/lick.
Dogs need training extensively just as we do ?, That sure stung and stuck when my Grandad said that to me.
He was an accomplished and awarded trainer with the pro circuit, Another was a devout bird hunter with dogs that went to the Dakotas yearly.
I am only a past best friend of a special dog named Max, was very lucky to have pic with support of the litter over the phone with a special dog handler "my brother" the litter from a breed line related to Nilo farms. From his Chocolate and the other owned by a special painter who I received a signed copy of the Nevada 1993 Common Goldeneye Stamp picture, H.S. Hopkins - Steve.
This was a very exciting part of my growing family, this dog was was all real lab and large.
The swipe of the tail alone could knock my young girls down, so that calming tail training was due also " ya wow".
He was also taught after ward to play with them to the side not standing over/on them and this took me being dominant "whatever it takes".
I used each and every page by someone smarter than I, a writer of the books Gun Dog, Water dog, Richard Wolters. I used these from day -one and the 200 miles traveling with dog in my leather jacket to home.
The above training is old school regimental with very minor treat food crap, yet the more important word from you good, great, thanks.
This was my dogs ( mine ) college training, and its Tops I recommend the consistent effort it works.
Sorry for all the hot air and I hope it works out, the plan you try as it sure is easier with a tip now and then.
Good Day there
If Joe had wanted to knock me down and rip my throat open, he would have. He was; however, letting me know that he doesn't like being disciplined. It was extremely threatening to me, probably because of the attack. Even without having previously been attacked, he's just much too big of a boy to run amuck like he wants to. Thus, obedience classes.
George (kid brother-in-law) was over this morning with his daughter's prom dress for me to steam wrinkles out of. He ran Joe through some stuff just to reinforce it. Hopefully it will help.
Virginia
Spare the rod and spoil the child, they say. We had a golden lab that was as bad or worse than Joe. He was 6 weeks when we picked him up[too early but already separated from momma] and all attitude. He would not listen to Winnie at all and I had to resort to treatment most would find abusive to get his attention and let him know that he was not in charge. By Joe's age the only thing that didn't just get laughed off was a sound thrashing with my belt until he yelped. I hated doing it ---but the other option was a one way walk in the bush with a gun. At 9 months he was a good dog when we lost him. He got into some rat poison that I didn't know about while we were working on an island down lake.
Do not let George be the alpha; Joe is your dog---YOU need to kick Joe's "mind" into step. He knows that he is in charge and that you won't retaliate from being bitten. At the next sign of aggression to anyone---BEAT HIS ASS till he fears for his welfare!!! tough love is exactly that---TOUGH, but if you want to save his life you have to be that forcefull to save him.
Winnie and I anguished many a night about having to treat Bear that harshly, but we had to do it and it worked. I'll always miss the years we could have enjoyed with him----and the love that he learned to share with us.
Blue heelers and border collie are bread to be herding dogs they like to work and if they have it in their nature, you can't change the behaviour. I had a black lab/ border collie cross who had more lab than collie. I bought a border collie out of working parents and had to sell him after 3 months because he would try to turn my daughter b back home when she was at the bus stop. The man who bought her owned a sheep ranch and he was amazed at this dogs inherent ability and instinct. Get this dog a job of you want to keep him.
I know blue heelers are workers. That was obvious from the first moment Joe was in our yard as he started trying to "herd" Jimmy (older dog).
Darren, it was interesting yesterday afternoon. I have "kneed" Joe in the yard for jumping to no avail. George kneed Joe yesterday for jumping. I told George that I've done that with no results, thus the turning my back on him (read it in a web page) and didn't find that particularly effective yesterday. George said that you just keep kneeing while putting your hand out and down to signify that they need to get off. At any rate, early afternoon I was crossing the living room and Joe came up and jumped on me. Without thinking, I kneed him, must have got his solar plexis and knocked his wind out. He dropped in his tracks, Bob said the look on his face was of total shock. Absolutely no crap out of him for the rest of the day. No chasing cats, no nipping when we went to pet him. He did start to get into trouble in Sew & Sew. I gave him a chance to correct himself, he declined, I took him to the stairs and told him to go upstairs and lay down and to my absolute amazement, he did. That is absolutely the first time he has listened to and obeyed me (other than housebreaking him which was so easy). We went for our after dinner walk last night and he spent the evening playing quietly with his toys. He did start chewing on something that he shouldn't have and when I told him no, he stopped. Very encouraging to say the least. I'm sure that the battle isn't over but at least now we know that he can and will listen to us. Was very nice to have a positive day/evening for a change.
Virginia
Don't know if this is an option for you but when we lived in Charleston I got into obedience training. In Charleston there were two excellent dog training clubs. I joined both. The nice thing about this is if you volunteer you get the training for free. And the folks there are experts with years of knowledge. I put in my time and attended every class I could. To the point that after about 2 years my German Shepard (in my profile picture) had his first AKC tittle and soon after that I was teaching classes. If you live in a fairly large town go online and see if there is a dog training club. You'll make a lot of good friends.
The thing about obedience training is the dog learns who's boss. Who's Alpha. This sounds like it may be your problem. Even if they don't address your problem specifically the dog will fall into line once you start the training. This takes a commitment. You are going to have to put in the time. Besides the classes you will train at home about 15 min a day. Always end the session on a good note. The final command should be one that he is very filmier with. NEVER start a session when your not into it or in a bad mood. Its always tempting, when your having a good session to keep going but this is the perfect time to knock off for the day.
After you are sure the dog understands the commands introduce distractions. Take him to the park and do your training there.
We used a lot of verbal praise when the dog was correct and a correction when the dog strayed. Don't be tempted to train off leash till the dog thoroughly understands the commands. At least 6 weeks or longer. I also used food to train my dog. You gotta find a treat the dog is just nuts about (dried liver) and use it ONLY for training. Some dogs aren't chow hounds and food does not work. His favorite toy or a ball will also work. Timing is everything. The moment the dog "gets it" he gets the reward. Your instructor will show you when to give the reward, when to give praise and when to give the correction.
There are many methods to training a dog so pay close attention to your instructor and do exactly as he/she says. Your instructor may not like my methods and that's fine. Do it his way. A good instructor does not train the dog. A good instructor will teach YOU how to train your dog.
Taking a dog to a facility and leaving it to be trained makes absolute no sense to me. You are the one that needs to train the dog. IMO the instructor should never grab your leash to show you how its done. This could actually set the dog back weeks. You should be the only one to train the dog during the course. Not your husband, not your kids, only you. Although they SHOULD go to the classes with you.
And a big PS. Have you ever considered herding training. Your dog would love this. If thats not an option agility training would channel his thought process in another direction.
When we first got my German Shepherd Dog he wanted nothing to do with me. By the end of 6 weeks we bonded like no other dog I have ever owned.
Thanks for the info!
Yes, we are signed up for obedience classes. They do not start until May 12th. 2 weeks from tomorrow - not like I'm counting the days or anything ; )
Joe definitely wants to be in charge of everything.
I think yesterday was very important in that he for the first time listened and obeyed me. He was only out of line a couple of times the rest of the day and I was able to get him to stop and divert his attention elsewhere. Joe came in a little after 5 and woke me up. Both dogs are very good about waking me if they need to go out before the alarm goes off and I'm thrilled that they both do that. In today's case, I would have been getting up in about 10 more minutes so no big deal. At any rate, he's not chased the cats at all, despite one cat doing her best to entice him. I've told Bob that about half his problem is the cats as I feel they know how to push his buttons and they also know that he will get "in trouble" for it. Grrr. Anyway, he ignored Cass. He and Jim were outside for 10-15 minutes and he didn't divebomb Jim or jump on his bad hips so his good behavior is still going strong. However, the day is young.
I don't expect perfection at this point. Just thought it would be nice every once in a while if he would listen and respond. He has and I'm thrilled. Do hope we continue on this string of good behavior though. 15 days from the start of training can be very long when he's being a toad.
Thanks again for all of your tips!
Virginia
I think some of the methods you used over the weekend are a step forward, and the basic regimented training that the books and ongoing obedience with exercise training are going to strengthen "your rule".
Pups are seriously needing a professional item to call a training toy for you to use consistently.
I found some of these at the pet shop others I made with canvas bags with different amounts of sand heat sealed at the kitchen counter of course. A reason I am mentioning is a training for chewing, biting, aka Hard Mouth or Soft, and a growing pup requires one to get bigger toys.
You really don't want the news paper as it has little pieces to pick up, a soft leather and or canvas throw toy are perfect, initially a soft toy equals soft mouth or bite and I think a preferred method for pets.
Once the training is established it will be locked in short order, imo.
Enjoy the outings I totally agree, and with a consistent schedule.
Good Day There
We had a little over a day of Joe being well behaved. Bob & I had to pop over to our lawyer's to sign some stuff related to his Mother's estate. Joe didn't want us to leave. Got squirrely when we got back. I sent him upstairs. He came barreling downstairs and started jumping, nipping and barking at me. Took him outside to let the steam off and he jumped me. I kneed him a couple of times because he kept jumping. The last jump I got the spot that he responds to and he's good as gold again. He definitely does NOT like this behavior modification tool but so far it is working. :fingers crossed: But as I said earlier, I didn't expect that one good knee and he would turn into the perfect dog. I'm just pleased that he will now respond to commands from me. Also gives me hope that the obedience training will give me some more tools.
Virginia
QuoteBob said the look on his face was of total shock. Absolutely no crap out of him for the rest of the day.
That was the same situation I was in with Bear. He was cocky and head strong and would just laugh off the usual corrections and punishments. I had to make him yelp for him to realize I was the alpha and wouldn't put up with any crap. I hated doing it---but it was a mercifully quick "enlightenment".
Buddy on the other hand was a totally different dude. To know that one of us was unhappy with him was the worst punishment he could get. He was more border collie than springer spaniel---but he never tried to "herd". He was constantly "counting his humans" though. I'd bring him in from the yard and the first thing he'd do was take a lap of the house (it isn't very big) and make sure everyone was accounted for. It was hilarious when we had a crowd over. He'd come in "
Yup 2 kids playing on stairs--Momma's in the kitchen---4,5, WAIT A MINUTE" then he'd hear the toilet flush or the door upstairs to the patio open and go "
6. GOOD". Then he'd have a drink and lay down.
A new day and Joe is still being more good than bad. One cat tried for all she was worth to get him stirred up and chasing her this morning. He looked at her and you could see he was thinking about it and then he just yawned and went back to sleep. I could not believe it.
He was still a little restless when we got back from our after supper walk. Was trying to get in a little trouble. Finally I told him that it was time to settle down. He sighed as only dogs can and then crashed out and was sleeping so hard that he didn't want to be disturbed for last call.
So far more positives than negatives at this point. Hopefully we will keep going in this direction and only get better after we've completed obedience training. I'm really looking forward to it.
Virginia
Ya think one of the cats had a talk with old Joe about obedience class? Hmm.
Virginia,
I am in total agreement with Lizzieb's advice. Too many people get a working dog for a companion and although you may beat him (physically or training) into submission..it is not fun for the dog. Better to get a dog that is bred to do what you expect of him..whether it be herding, cuddling, taking down wild pigs, leading the blind....etc. I personally think it is a huge dis-service, especially for what sounds like a demanding high energy level this dog possesses, to keep a dog in an environment that is not suited to their trait.
With a husband who has bad hips, and you, working in your shop all day, may not be the right environment for the dog to keep him occupied enough. A tired dog is a good dog. Too many people also anthropomorphize (assigning human thoughts and reasoning to canine thinking) and it just doesn't work.
Have I learned all this the hard way with previous dogs, yes I have.
Perry
Perry, it is our 12 + year old dog that has bad hips, not hubby. Once we get through obedience training, I am contemplating training him for herding (as brain exercise for Joe).
Joe is not left unattended for long periods. My shop is in our basement and as long as he's not being destructive or keeping me from working, he's got full run of it. Often spends the morning crashing on his pillow in Sew & Sew. If he's not dead to the world down here, he's crashed out upstairs. He gets about a 40 minute walk after lunch and we take several "ball" breaks during the afternoon. After supper we take about a 30 minute walk. If I have tear out to do, I have been doing that in the mornings, on our patio so that Joe can be exploring his yard. We are also going to have more of our yard fenced in so that he can get a good head of steam up when he starts running.
I think it would be more of a disservice, at this point, to take him back to the Humane Society then to get him trained to obey simple commands and find him a "hobby". He absolutely loves both Bob & I as well as our 12 year old dog. Not sure what he thinks of the cats ; )
On an aside, we're about 10 blocks from a park that has a lake. The lake is where hundreds of ducks and geese congregate during spring and summer. Some of the ducks wander around the surrounding area. I have been surprised that Joe and I haven't run into any ducks so far this spring on our walks. Last night we had our storm door open as it was a lovely evening. Joe was just settling down from his after supper walk. I have a vantage pint of the front porch from where I sit. I heard a horrible ruckus and looked up to see 2 of the ducks on the front porch. One was pecking at the screen with his beak. The lab in Joe came out big time. He was beside himself to get out and find those ducks. He's not much on being outside alone but he did spend almost half an hour searching the back yard for his ducks. The cats and Jimmy were oblivious to everything but not Joe. Too funny!
Virginia
Virginia:
I raised, bred and trained GSD's for over 40 years ( since my childhood ). There is no dog that has a " pack mentality " then GSD's. I have had numerous owners come to me with problems and it all stems from the owner and how they handle their dog's.
Ed hit the nail on the head when he said you need to establish dominance. Without this your dog will OWN you instead of you owning a dog. The best way to establish dominance over a dog is working them on a leash. Choke chains work great as long as they are placed high on the neck and not in a lower spot. Put him through his paces and scold him when he doesn't do what you want him to but praise the daylights out of him when he does well.
I myself do not believe in using treats as rewards. But then I only work with GSD's and they respond great to love and praise. You have another dog and your just another member in the pack. You HAVE to establish yourself as the Alpha and until you do problems will persist. So make him understand you mean business when you give a command. Once you start working him on a leash he will start getting the idea that YOUR the alpha and you will see a different dog in him. Just remember he is a puppy and they all test our patience just like toddlers will do.
Ed gave you sound advice and obviously him and I are on the same page when it comes to training dogs. Our method does work. :)
Best of luck and hang in there.
Chris
My 2 little one damaged so e baseboard i still have to repair house breaking is hard not being home all day. At least they have eachother. Bt there happy a a pig in mud when i come home. To go out. Even when i have presents. But you remonded me i have to walk them more ive been so tired after my brother was in the hospital january i was home much at night to walk them and after sork has been so much. I was walking a mile a night good for me too.
My bigest issue is barkly after i feed them and sitting down on the couch barkly starts yapping for more. I dont want to make him fat. I was puttti g his leache on and he would settle down at my feet but after time he still started againg lalty.
Herding dogs are HIGH energy dogs. They need a ton of daily exercise. Tongue hanging to the ground exercise. I know you take him for his daily walk but a dog with all this built up energy needs to find a way to get rid of it. Sometimes that means getting into trouble or bugging the heck out of you. My young girl has this problem. Usually all I need to do is stomp my feet and she goes. And I don't let her slow down until shes worn out. 15 mins a day of hard exercise would help a lot
Like Mojo, I've had GSDs for the better part of 30 years. Some are easy, some are not. Only with the latest I've found that a stronger hand is required. She was crazy, nutty, over-enthusiastic, didn't know her own strength, nippy, whirling dirvish on a leash, you get the picture. The only thing that worked with her was overpowering with strength - and it didn't take long. Left hand on the collar, right hand on the shoulders, push her to the floor and pin her there till she calmed down. No hitting, no pain, no abuse, just "I'm in charge here and I'm bigger than you". Only had to do that for about 3 weeks. And after 2 years, she still army-crawls to the front door when we come home - squinty eyes and all. Not saying it will work, but like kids, you sometimes have to adjust your methods to achieve the desired result.
June
Energy. Whew, that's why I've started walking him twice a day. Plus going out for ball throwing breaks whenever he comes down to bug me during the day. If I'm lucky when we go out, he gets his urge to "run like the wind" .. that always cracks me up. I'll be very glad when we get all of my MIL's estate issues finalized. Our first project is to enclose a bunch more of the yard which will give Joe a bigger area to run amuck in. We both think he will enjoy the "run game" much more when that happens.
This is Thursday and the first day I got him to listen to me (thanks to a well placed knee) was on Sunday. He's still way more good than bad. I was using the drill earlier and he wanted to get underfoot then but went upstairs when I told him to. Last week that never would have happened. The cats are figuring out that they can walk across a room that he's in and he won't feel compelled to get up and chase them (most of the time). 2 months ago that never would have happened. Some is maturity and some (like going upstairs) is starting to understand that he has to pay attention to me.
On our walk yesterday, one of the houses sprinkler system had just kicked in. I let Joe "go at it" as he loves to run amuck in sprinkler's when they are running. First he drank, then flopped over on his back and rolled around and around. He had an absolute ball. I was just standing there holding his lead and laughing and laughing at how ridiculous he looked.
Virginia
Things seemed to be going pretty well until the full moon. Joe then became something of a butt head - started biting when we tried to pet him, barking at everything, chasing the cats, going after Jim. Tried to ride it through and seemed like Joe was settling down. Walked Joe after supper as is our routine. Came back to give Jim his second, though shorter, walk of the day. Came back with Jim and was in the kitchen rustling around for their after walk milk bone when I heard Jim scream horribly. Ran into the living room and found Bob absolutely livid. Joe had jumped from the couch over the coffee table and landed very forcefully on Jim's hips (12-1/2 years old and the only health related issue he has). We were convinced that his hips were broken, dislocated as he was dragging his right leg. Fortunately after an hour or so, he put weight on the leg, though a little tenderly. Seems to be walking normally this morning.
We are still 6 days away from obedience training. I'm calling the trainer this morning. If she cannot give me a tool to keep Joe away from Jim, I have no choice but to take Joe back. Jim is not dominant (probably the problem) and did NOTHING to provoke Joe. Joe may be trying to get Jim to play (I would prefer to think that this is not malicious) but Jim and his hip cannot withstand the kind of romping that Joe wants to be able to do. I'm not going to put Jim down because his hips are old when he's still getting around fine (as long as a 40+ pound dog does not jump on them). Bob & I have talked and it may be necessary to put Jim down come winter, depending on how much snow/ice we get, but right now he's enjoying the weather and walking around the neighborhood with me.
I'm really po'd at Joe as I have tried everything I can think of to keep him away from Jim and nothing works. I also know that I still love Joe but feel more of a responsibility to that old man dog who has been a good and loyal friend for over 12 years now. Talk about the proverbial rock and hard spot.
Virginia
I think you would do the new dog a favor by taking him to a location where his energy and exuberance will be appreciated. And I'm not being snotty. I see people all the time, that get dogs that, by their very breed, are inclined to certain behaviors. If you rehome, now you know what kind of home he needs so you can be very selective and I think that would give you a GREAT deal of satisfaction knowing you matched up a new family with a dog that suits their environment. Having a new young dog with your old bad hip dog, seems like it creates a tense environment...seems like you would constantly be on edge that "something's about to happen"... That's not good for you or the dogs.
I think that when you have two dogs in the household, you also have to work harder to be the boss..because rather than keeping each other company, the dogs are talking amongst themselves about the best way to blow you off and ignore you. Seriously...
I have two dogs now, one is a Jack Russell mix and the other is a Boston. The Boston is the dominant one. She is very clever and is always wanting to negotiate with me for everything....I say sit and she looks as if "yeah, what's in it for me?" The JR is very cute, but not really all that bright...she is very food motivated, as opposed to the Boston who is very praise motivated.
good luck.
Perry
I feel for you Virginia. That is a very tough situation, but I'm sure you and Bob will find what is right for you. Perry does bring up a good option; find someone who is in a better situation to deal with his "issues" and find a more docile adoptee for your situation. You two will have to decide for yourselves.
QuoteLeft hand on the collar, right hand on the shoulders, push her to the floor and pin her there till she calmed down. No hitting, no pain, no abuse,
Trust me; I tried that!!!, despite all the bites and scratches (he was one wiry pup), until the night he decided to attack me after I let him up. If my own dear departed mother had run 5 feet to bite me in the calf hard enough to draw blood through my work pants as I was walking away, I'd have the same knee-jerk reaction; a back hand as I spun around. That was the first time he questioned his being the alpha. I certainly don't advocate that type of treatment to any animal. My point was simply that you have to be in charge,and if that means
reasonable use of force ---you have to consider it or give up.
I have never had / or been around another animal that needed to be that "over powered". I have worked around horses that needed a hackamore bit, or wouldn't listen to heels pressed against the ribs with the verbal command unless they heard you wearing spurs. That's "taking charge" the same as George's suggestion to get a choke collar. But this was an extreme case. I don't care if I'm living in a ute, de-balling sheep in outer Mongolia---I will not have a dog that bites on my property.
We have a choke. He's been responding to it (finally) on the walks when he decides he wants to chase a squirrel/bird/leaf/whatever.
It is not an option to find Joe another home. We signed a contract with CNHS when we adopted Joe. We either work it out or we return him to CNHS and they evaluate him at which point he his either caged again until a home can be found or euthanized should they decide that he is not "adoptable".
Talked with the obedience trainer. Issue with jumping on Jim seems to be after walks when he is still amped up. Sooo, we are going to try to keep him away from Jim until he has calmed down. Once he calms down, it's not a worry. Honestly, it seems to me a situation of his being so fired up because he had a fun walk and he really, really, really wants to play with Jim. Jim is too old for rough housing.
It also will be easier once the fence line has been moved and Joe has more room to run. Unfortunately, that can't happen until the estate issues are settled. Hopefully, that will be a done deal by the 15th. Then we will be able to contact fencing company and have them start working on that.
I still want to hang in with Joe until we go through obedience classes. If we can't come to terms with each other by the end of classes, we will have no other option than to return Joe to CNHS but that is not my preferred option. He spent our early morning with his head on my lap while I drank coffee/surfed the web. He is NOT a vicious animal -- just has tons of energy and really wants to romp with Jim.
Virginia
Sounds like to me you're going to go through the martyrdom of keeping a dog that may (maybe not) be suited to your environment. I see good intentioned animal saviors like this all the time. And I just walk away, shaking my head. I do, believe me, think animals are important. But they are dogs. And should not be the be all, end all. They are dogs. My decision would be to return the dog, with an objective assessment of his personality and your best efforts...geez, that would be valuable information to the next owner, who might just turn out to be just right. You also have no idea of his genetic background, these may be behaviors that you will never change. If you do return him to the shelter and they opt to euthanize him, you've done all you can realistically do. It's a dog. Yes, you're attached, but honestly you don't have a long history with him. Only expectation of what you hoped for.
I don't think you would be a failure at all if you turned him back in...that's what the system is for. Sometimes happy endings, sometimes not.
And that bullshit about HAVING to take him back to the shelter...it's your dog. A dog, but your dog. You could just tell them that you're looking for a foster until your older dog dies.
Perry
yes, I'm warm and fuzzy like this all the time.
Perry, you can call it bullshit if you like but here is line #3 from our CONTRACT:
I agree that the animal is being adopted for myself and will not be sold, adopted or given to another part and that if at any point I cannot keep the animal, I will return him to the CNHS.
I have no idea what they would do if we broke the contract nor do I have any intention of finding out.
Not sure why you call me a martyr for doing everything in my power to make an adoption work. I fell head over heels with Joe, the moment I saw him. Yes, he's driven me crazy over a few things but when he lays with his head on my lap and looks up at me, that's it. A larger yard to run in and obedience training I hope will make the difference. If we don't feel objectively that anything has changed at that point, Joe will be returned to the shelter.
We do not look at any of our dogs as "just dogs" Never have and I hope never will.
Virginia
I think that if you rehomed the dog, there is no legal recourse from them other than hot air and threats. Personally, I would damn the torpedoes and dare them. I think the shelter mentality is to instill the martyrdom syndrome and guilt and all sorts of unrealistic conditions. Fact is, not every dog can be or should be saved.
I adore my dogs. I treat them very well. I say all the time that when I am reincarnated, I want to come back as one of my dogs. But, I constantly remind them, they are dogs. I am the human with the opposable thumb. I do not reward bad behavior, I ignore it. I praise good behavior. I walk them every day on my own 5 acres on a leash. They have a huge fenced in yard at the house. My shop is visible to them from their back yard.
There is a word called "anthropomorphize"..It means assigning human values to an animal...your statement about how "he lays his head in your lap and looks up at me" indicates that's what's going on. So many people mean well but think in human emotions regarding dogs. My girls are quite content and I think that is because I recognize and treat them like *dogs*. They are allowed to be comfortable being dogs. And I work with them, within their capabilities and breed specifics to keep them happy and engaged dogs.
I never said "JUST" dogs.. I said dogs. Big difference.
Like I said. Good luck.
Perry
Whatever Perry, you are entitled to your opinion.
Our dogs always have been treated as more than dogs. Our cats are also treated as more than cats. It's just the way that both of us were brought up. Always worked out in the past so I'm hopeful that it will work out in this case as well.
Joe had a much better day yesterday. I talked to the trainer late Wednesday evening about Joe's behavior. Most times when he's gotten "squirrely" with Jim, it's right after walk time when he's still all amped up. Joe loves his twice daily walks! Her advice was to try and keep the two separated until Joe settles down until training starts and she's had a chance to observe his behavior personally and then she'll be able to provide some insight as far as can his behavior be modified and so forth. The morning was a little crazy for all of us. We bought a new dishwasher and the install was yesterday. We remodeled the kitchen after the old was installed (like 3 years) and our contractor installed a new floor on top of the old floor which left about 1/4" free space to remove the old unit and the same amount to get the new unit in. Poor guy had to use a sawz-all to cut off the legs and had to cut something on the top as well. The dishwasher fell out almost on top of him. He succeeded and left in one piece. Bottom line was that we had people walking in and out of the kitchen that Joe didn't know (installer's boss and owner both came over to make sure that the new unit could be put in place before cutting the old unit into pieces). So Joe was a little riled up over all the commotion in the kitchen. We had afternoon walks on schedule. I brought up some tear-out to work on upstairs until Joe quieted down. We played ball/tossed Frisbee's for 15-20 minutes before supper. Had our after supper walks and even though I increased Joe's by a block all around, he was still really keyed up when I got back with Jim. Joe always comes out when Jim gets home so I left Joe out and got Jim in and situated. Then I went out and played ball/Frisbee with Joe for about 15 minutes. His tongue was dragging pretty good so I thought he was ready to settle down but he was not ready to settle down yet. Let him run the back yard by himself until he barked at the back door (maybe 25 minutes). Let him in and he settled right down until it was time to go out for bedtime bathroom break.
All that leads me to hope that even though I've been playing outside with him lots, it has just not been enough. He's not been willing to stay out by himself until this week. I've been trying consistently to get him outside and he's always barked and jumped at the door before. The weather is so nice now plus we bought him some outside play toys that he really likes so he's better about staying outside for a while.
Joe needs to learn that we are in charge and to stop whatever he's doing when told. Our rules have always been pretty simple: go to the bathroom outside, don't destroy furniture, don't kill and or eat our cats. Now we have a new one: don't jump on Jim's bad hips. Joe's got 1 down pat. We're working on 2 as he likes to chew on chair legs, tables, etc. 3 should probably be modified to ignore cats since ours are old and not likely to accept Joe. #4 is the big one. If I have to spend more time playing with Joe outside this summer, I will do so. Dogs age and as they age, they become less frenetic. Also, remember that Jim is on very limited time, depending on winter weather and being a 12+ year old dog pretty much anything can go wrong between now & winter.
If, after obedience training, the trainer feels that his behavior cannot be modified we will take him back with very great sadness. Meanwhile I will do whatever to keep that from happening. If that makes me a martyr, whatever. I feel that Joe's worth it.
Virginia
Introduce Joe to his new best friends. Mr. Leash and Mr. Training Collar (I don't use the term "choke" collar; they only choke if they're put on incorrectly). Joe goes nowhere without them. He will wear them in the house, too, but only when you're home to monitor the situation. Joe must be under your control (or easily within your control) from now on. He clearly needs to learn that you are the captain of the dog ship! and it's clear from your posts that your captainship is still very much a bone of contention. IMO the most important commands are "sit", "down", and "stay". And learn the hand commands, too! (invaluable). You can train your wayward mutt in 20 minutes a day if you require him to learn those commands. 3 Ps= patience, practice, praise. I don't like using food treats, only used praise and lavish pats to train our dog; 100lbs., 1 1/2 yrs., out of control, and with a serious "working dog" mentality; "large and in charge". The trainers who taught the obedience classes we took said "working dogs" can be tough to train, but once you "crack the nut", they make fabulous companions. They were right!
Everything in his life must be controlled by you or your husband. And you two need to have to use the same commands and require the same level of compliance. He must sit and wait until you release him before he:
1.) ascends or descends a staircase.
2.) enters or exits a home/room.
3.) receives a "treat" or is fed.
4.) gets into or out of a car.
5.) he must "down/stay" and hang out quietly while he awaits your next command.
Every simple aspect of his life must be controlled by you. End of story.
bobbin:
Thanks so much! What are hand commands? Is that like taking your hand down when you want him to stop jumping and that type of thing? I'll google hand commands later today to see what I can find.
Joe wears his new collar 24-7. I'll start with the lead in the house until he quiets down. I quite agree that captainship is still being negotiated. Obviously a smart dog based on how quickly he housebroke. Our old vet in KS emailed me that heelers are too smart for their own good sometimes and I believe I understand what he means. Joe knows sit, down (shaky) and stay not yet. I'll work on stay as well.
Thanks again for your info. Makes perfect sense to me.
Virginia
We enrolled in AKC Obedience Training. We completed Basic and Advanced Basic. AKC Obedience work includes (very specific) voice commands and equally specific hand commands. The goal is that the dog must look to/AT you for direction! the hand commands, taught in conjunction with voice commands, ensure that a deaf handler/deaf dog can still be worked and controlled with reasonable certainty. My "neighbor" across the street was astounded when I commanded our dog to "down/stay" while we were talking by the mailboxes across the street from my home. I simply turned and faced our dog (in our yard, across the road from my location) and said, "Down" in conjunction with the hand command (a sweeping down motion) and said, "Stay" (an abrupt vertical cock of the right wrist). The dog obeyed immediately and I praised him as soon as he was "down" and "staying".
You do not "negotiate" captainship! Your dog does what you tell him to do within 3 seconds or you enforce the command immediately. Captainship is not about "negotiation". You say it, he does it within 3 seconds or you correct him and put him in the desired position. End of story. You give the command ONE TIME, you allow 3-5 seconds, and then you enforce it! This is where Mr. Leash and Mr. Training Collar become your best friends. If you have them and use them you will be able to control a dog who does not yet know how to obey you or who doesn't "take you seriously". You don't have to be "mean" or rough, but you do have to be "ruthless", and you must enforce every command or the dog will know you're basically an Obedience Pussy. The key is to be relentlessly consistent. Dogs understand that and they actually thrive on it. Once he's done what's been asked you make him hold it for 30 seconds before praising him. And praise IS NOT A RELEASE. Make him continue to obey you for 1-2 minutes before releasing him. Gradually increase the time he's require to comply and he will come to understand that doing what's been asked of him gains him warm praise and affection. This fosters trust and that's the foundation of an affectionate, loyal, and obedient dog.
The thing that so many dog owners miss about obedience work is that it's about establishing an affectionate working relationship... , you're the Cap't! it's about doing it what you command and then waiting for further ORDERS. This will keep your dog safe in a world utterly controlled by increasingly weird human beings!
Cool, thank you so much.
I don't know if our obedience is AKC or not yet. Will ask Tuesday evening. Want to get through these sessions and see how Joe is. Love the idea of hands/voice working together. Also makes great sense about praising while holding command and increasing length of time required to hold the position. That is one thing I can start working on right now (sit).
Feeling good that Tuesday is almost here. Joe does know that he's not supposed to screw with Jim. He always waits until I'm out of the room and then I hear him start to tussle. Most times I don't have to even go into the living room. Tell him to "Leave Jim alone" and whoosh, he's on the couch. Anyway, even with a mostly rainy Saturday he was more than acceptable. Just a little rowdy as we didn't get much yard playtime in. Rain subsided at the right time that we could walk but otherwise it was rainy and I did need to try and get some work done. Looks to be a nice sunny day so we'll be back to our new schedule of 15-20 minutes of ball/Frisbee every couple of hours (that lets me get some work done). Have some RV seats with a drop dead date of Wed pm so have to keep plugging away.
Thanks again for your insight and encouragement as it is very much appreciated!
Virginia
It seems that owners' personalities can fit better with some dogs than others. I have a yellow lab who's personality seems to fit mine. My third yellow lab.
There are dogs that I would not want to have. Or at least my impression of some dogs is such that I would not want them.
Do dogs become more like their owners, or do owners become more like their dogs? Or are similar personalities to begin with are the ones who last?
gene
I do not feel bad for taking this topic off topic. Because, well. And my favorite is Mr. Putin.
https://www.google.com/search?q=people+that+look+like+their+dogs&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=T5RPVZOAA4LAggSU4YHoAw&ved=0CCEQsAQ&biw=1252&bih=557
And my grand-daughter (almost 10 years old) got this as a party favor for a friend's birthday party?!?
(https://scontent-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/s480x480/10153285_10204354768494133_1570742843332678943_n.jpg?oh=5f9acc1f719389be311638dae4f5eba8&oe=55D46FF8)
Gene:
You make a good point.
I once worked with a GSD dog owner who was having behavioral issues with her dog. After a month I finally had to tell her there was nothing wrong with the dog, it was her and she needs to consider a different breed. GSD's because they are a very strong minded and intelligent breed and because of their fierce pack mentality needs a strong minded person who can assume the role of pack leader. Otherwise a GSD will run all over you and control you and your home.
My years of working and training dogs included not only the GSD breed but also the Lab. I always suggest to people to consider a lab if they have young kids. GSD's feed off the energy of their masters and kids can really get them wound up. A lab makes great play mates, mind very well, are intelligent and are awesome family dogs.
My grandkids spent Christmas with us and they ran rough shod on our two GSD's. They took all the poking, prodding, being laid on, etc. and never once got annoyed. But dang it took two days for them both to settle back down into our routine after the kids left. :)
While I always have owned GSD's I also had a lab as they made great farm dogs and companions. They are an awesome breed. I am actually considering a lab for our next dog. I miss them.
Chris
I know every dog person has their own ways of working through training, and this is the one way I do it. It may or may not work for you, but I thought I would share anyway. I foster German Shepherds, and get them, usually, at their worst. No obedience training, never been in a house, or abused and starved. While every dog is different, there are a couple things I am very consistent with. One is using a long line, which is a great learning tool. I place them on a long leash for the first couple days or week, depending on how quickly they pick up. They stay with me and stay on the line even when I take them outside to relieve themselves. I really like that I see a problem before it happens. I am able to see and reinforce good behavior and correct bad behavior instantly. Good behavior gets a tiny piece of a treat. Bad behavior gets a short quick tug on the line with a one word command. I never raise my voice and always consistent with my commands. I also never go overboard with praise as it seems to over stimulate them. When visitors arrive, I use the long line as a tool during this time too. When someone knocks on the door, find a place that your dog can go lay down. This something that needs to be practiced. After the visitors come in, wait several minutes before allowing your dog to get up and greet your guests. Your guests should already know that they are not to pay any attention your dog if he starts jumping on them or misbehaving. Quick tug and command should be given. If they continue to misbehave, lead them back to their 'place' to lay down. You may have to do this many times, but like little kids, you have to reinforce the learning constantly. Also, if you find that everything the dog is doing is wrong, make sure you give a command that you know he will do right. It helps with his confidence. Too many wrong moves and the dog will make an effort to do anything that pleases you; they give up. As well, those learning moments should be short spurts because they will tire of it and won't listen or learn at all. Hope some of this will help.