Worked on two wingbacks today and was reminded that strong frames can be made of plywood. I have done these before but had forgotten about the plywood bit - this project was a reminder.
That given, after checking the frames (mainly plywood but not all) they were strong and holding up well. For kicks, the plywood was measured at 13/16 th inch. Pretty thick I thought. I was somewhat impressed of the plywood joinery also, it was holding up well.
Bottom line, plywood can be used effectively in furniture framing. Seen them before but not that often lately.
BTW, these chairs were made in USA (if I think about it I will get the brand later).
Doyle
The plywood may not have been from the US - what I get is usually scant under 3/4 inch ?
Anyway plywood is strong if it's screwed and doweled together - rather then butt joined and stapled.
The plywood boards I see most often broken is that flake board crap.
SA
Retrieved the brand of chair these are: Sam Moore - That brand has been around a long while.
I will venture to say over 30 years.
Anyone know specifics about their plywood framing? My small intuition, being around so long, is the chairs have been made in the USA.
The joinery of plywoods they exhibit is a locking joint, plus something else to fully lock the joints tight.
Definitely a different approach and Sam Moore chairs were not cheap to buy.
Just a thought to ask; it isn't all that important but will anyway - I don't know if 13/16 th inch was an incorrect measurement (may as well could have been 3/4 inch, but ask if there might be other markings that would identify where/who made the plywood. These chairs are probably around 30 years and Sam Moore was making them even longer. I thought they were made somewhere around Michigan, my best recall.
Doyle
I don't think anything will beat a good old hardwood frame. The problem with frames these days are the joints just don't match. And trying to use a clamp to pull the joint together just warps the whole frame.
Plywood is okay as long as its thick enough. I've seen a lot of plywood frames where the front rail is warped from the stress of the springs. Or the spring clips failed because the staple holding them in came loose. I've also seen high quality sectionals that were built like a brick s@#t house. They were doweled and screwed using plenty of glue. They were built with 1" or thicker plywood. They had cross rails in the springs and large corner blocks. I'm not familiar with the brand you speak of but personally I would not build a wing chair out of plywood unless I was on a tight budget.
I've just finished a couple of Massoud chairs that were made in '93.
There was a lot of plywood used in the construction. But it is good thick plywood, and the chairs are still rock solid. And the foam still looks like it has never even been sat on. I don't think that brands like Massoud and Henredon are turning out that kind of quality nowadays.
The only difference (now) between a Massoud frame and one from Rooms To Go, is that the one from Rooms To Go will likely have cheaper foam, but will cost less.
Had to fix an ottoman yesterday. Across the top of the frame were two pieces of OSB, roughly 3/4" x 4"
The woman said her step-mother, who weighed about 125 lb soaking wet, sat on it in the first 30 minutes after delivery. When I got there I could pull the supports and the support blocks out with my hands leaving a trail of staple legs.
Quote from: byhammerandhand on July 07, 2015, 06:34:39 pm
Had to fix an ottoman yesterday. Across the top of the frame were two pieces of OSB, roughly 3/4" x 4"
The woman said her step-mother, who weighed about 125 lb soaking wet, sat on it in the first 30 minutes after delivery. When I got there I could pull the supports and the support blocks out with my hands leaving a trail of staple legs.
I bet it looked pretty in the showroom.
I'm sure it did.
In the last couple of years, I've worked with some Chinese plywood. You cannot buy worst cr@p than this. top veneer microscopically thin and splintery. Internal plies often have voids and stuff that looks like straw. And plies laid up willy-nilly. A 3/4" thick piece might have 5 layers here and 10" away 12 layers. Slam it in there, let the press take care of it. A few years ago I was doing a job for a customer and he grabbed the cutoffs and put them on the loading dock. I needed a small piece and went to look for a scrap. In the misty weather for 20 minutes and it was already delaminating. I think they used duck spit for adhesive.
After the last time, I swear I'll never buy that stuff again.
QuoteI don't think anything will beat a good old hardwood frame
e]
I'm quite old fashioned and had the same opinion but had to change my opinion recently.
Had to re-upholster some furniture from Ligne Roset.
A high end french furniture manufacturer.
Everything done with very good quality plywood. Rock Solid build - like a Tank.
Yes their furniture is contemporary, so their design calls for plywood.
But nothing like their Chinese counterparts. Screws were all stainless steel - a pleasure to work with.
A little bit heavy to lift but liked very much their Idea's of upholstery.
Original workmanship perfect no shortcuts.
All the Leather pieces top-stitched with no welting a lot prefabricated pieces like slipcovers.
Would like to have more of these pieces to work on.
This thread actually points out the furniture market is driving quality of or lack of quality in new furniture.
Keith had an experience that is common (for furniture made today), some others have related experience of noting quality can be incorporated in furniture (furniture made of or incorporating plywood that is).
The overiding issue driving these different experiences is marketing cost; when consumers are primarily driven by cost , manufacturers have to cut value and when quality is the consumer focus, good quality at a price can be produced by manufacturers.
One over riding issue of this development is where will small shops like ours be in the next 10 years? The repairs/reupholstering demands will not or likely not be strong enough for us to conduct business as we do today.
How do we envision our operations in -- say about 3 to 5 years? What will be there to sustain the small shop?
Doyle
Decent plywood is fairly strong, though not as much as solid lumber.
Advantages of plywood include
- lower cost per bd. ft.
- No need to plane faces, remove warp, and joint edges
- less waste (possibly)
- ability to use CNC machinery to cut parts, optimized layout on standardized dimension sheets
- No worries about stress on short grain lines or grain runout
- No knots, rot, wane or other defects to work around.
Very interesting thread, you guys. I don't get into upholstery personally, but I'm always on the prowl for interesting pcs. set out for trash collection! I've found some real plums, too!
I look for nice "lines", something that pleases my eye from an aesthetic standpoint. If I like it enough I'll stop the car, get out and give the pc. a good strong "jiggle". Wobbly doesn't necessarily frighten me off... but I'll definitely rip off the cambric and do a cursory "exploratory".
I understand that manufacturers have to find ways to cut material costs while still maintaining their preferred level of quality, so it's good to know that plywood doesn't necessarily mean, "cheap" or "crap". I think the nugget here is that the pcs. were dowelled/screwed... not stapled.
I've seen many plywood frames since I've been back in the business. I remember when it was first being used probably in the 80s when we started seeing it. It was a Sin back then. Mainly because the plywood frame members were designed to be built like the hardwood frames of the past. This just did and doesn't work. It takes different joinery to make a decent plywood furniture frame. Hence CNC and the joinery it provides.
If you have good plywood and good joinery I would dare say you will end up with a good frame. Put crap in any of the process and it will not be good.
In talking about marketing costs, here's a fascinating article about Costco and why they sell their roticessery chickens so cheap. You don't see this issue in big companies very often.
Quote...where will small shops like ours be in the next 10 years?
I hope my shop has a sign on the door, "Gone fishing, or some other retirement type pursuit."
I think there will always be work for furniture upholsterers. As the overall volume of business decreases, the number of upholsterers dying and retiring is increasing. I think there will always be young folks willing to learn the trade, but maybe in conjunction with other trades.
I think custom upholstery will continue to grow in it's focus on quality, and away from the "rag and tag" days.
gene
Great topic.
Several years back I purchased a couple of R&D frames from a nationally known high end furniture company and stapled to the frame was "confidential" notes. On these notes were some interesting facts about the frame. The ones I remember were: The frame was cut in under 5 minutes and from 2 sheets of furniture grade plywood (1.25" thick). The yield from the two sheets of plywood exceeded 85%. .........or less than 15 % waste.
Here is an interesting article I read the other week: http://www.performancepanels.com/upholstered-furniture
One other thing to consider.
Formaldehyde is a high volume chemical commonly found in the home. It is the adhesive resin that holds composite woods (such as particleboard, plywood and medium-density fiberboard) together and has a similar function in other products.
Interiors Sources
Chemistry Class, by Penny Bonda, FASID
http://www.isdesignet.com/Magazine/Mar'98/eco.html
Formaldehyde, the most widely known of a group of substances known as volatile organic compounds (VOCs) is both naturally occurring and man-made and is found in a variety of consumer products such as molded plastic items, particle board, plywood, paper, sealants, paints, textiles, foam mattresses, building insulation and upholstery stuffing. Many of these items will emit appreciable amounts of the stuff for five or more years after manufacture. Worse yet, the evaporating fumes will tend to be absorbed and then re-released by large interior surfaces such as ceiling tiles, wall board and carpeting. Formaldehyde has been classified as a potential human carcinogen by the EPA.?
On Ladd Upholstery Designs web-site I have a section titled Why Reupholster? On it I make the point, It's "green" to reupholster. Landfills are full of discarded furniture. New furniture requires a lot of resources to produce. New furniture can take up to 2 5 years to off gas toxic fumes. Buying local means less packaging, less transportation and a smaller carbon footprint.
the mfg. out there don`t care about the future just a big bank account .
yes plywood can be a good chair frame use the good grade and put together right. plywood is like furniture there are different grades and with a good grade it can be a good frame .
i have been doing upholstery for 51 years . mostly furniture and did some factory work in early 60`s where we used hardwood stapled together frames . oake was the cheapest frames blackgun maple was the better frames dal joints and braces were glued in .those frames are made today but a couch frame alone would be more than a fully covered couch in a low end store lie Farmer badcock railway freight and such stores . that is what the majority buy`s so that is what they sell some one is going to make and sell it . the un educated people on what is good and bad will not listen the going to buy the cheep stuff . i just sold my upholstery shop because there isn't enough good money making jobs out there and at 69 1/2 years old it hit at a good time in my life . most furniture stores are junk by the truck load .
While this thread started with a discussion centered on manufacturers incorporating plywood in their upholstered frames -that actually seem to be holding up as observed by us upholsterers - as we do just that - reupholster them. The other ideas that were woven into the thead was blame for cheap made furniture. Plus, there was some discussion on the one spin-off of the industry going forward - namely there likely will be less custom reupholstery over time. I believe that is very likely.
With that short summary as background, let's not finger point at low quality produced furnitue and blame manufacturers. Manufacturers produce what will sell, that simple. If consumers did not buy, it would not be produced.
A collorary to this discussion, over the last 10 years, statistics show that furniture retailers and furniture manufacturers that have gone out of business, are those
who produced high quality and those retailers who were selling the same. Simple answer is consumers did not like the higher prices. Instead "price" was their biggest motivator. I definitely think it still is.
There are several more factors that shape the furniture industry today into what we are experiencing. Technology used to produce low price furniture can be concluded to be higher than technology used several years ago to produce higher quality furniture.
So, in perspective, higher technology does not guarantee higher quality furniture. Nor does higher technology exclude higher quality production. So what all this says is some of the new furniture has eye appeal even though the intrinsic value is often low on quality, as most admit. That is full circle to the "price sells" discussion.
Another interesting fact to a craftsman, especially one who does repairs on the newer stuff is; it is not only built with higher technology, it is built more efficiently. In a word, the manufacturers can really put the furniture out fast! This fact has developed relatively fast while efficiencies in custom work shops -- well has not changed near as fast. Personally, this is an important issue for small shops today and going forward. Time is money in what ever world you work in and money usually very important.
Repeating this important point; Efficiency will become even a bigger factor in the small reupholstering industry - going forward.
In order to give credibility to the points presented, just turn the tables, what if the custom shops were more efficient than manufacturers and had the price advantage in marketing, then there wouldn't be enough frames or upholsters to serve the market.
Efficiency does and will play out in our business today and going forward, namely our financial reapings! I will admit it is always a latent thought in my daily business.
Thanks to all for the interesting input.
Doyle
+1 Doyle,
I can't remember the last time I saw an ad for "highest quality furniture.," Normally one of these:
- Full room of furniture for $xxx (This weekend only!!!)
- 20% off everything
- Guaranteed low price or it's free !!! (Still haven't figured that one out*)
- No payments until next year
- No credit? slow credit? No problem!
* "At Furniture Fair we guarantee that our prices are the lowest available in the Cincinnati Ohio Tri-State market. If you are able to find it advertised lower, we will beat that price or it is free! Competitors pricing is subject to verification. Excludes: clearance items, floor samples, close-outs, and discontinued merchandise. " So, FF has a sofa for $1299 and the store down the street has it for $1099. At what point would FF just say, "No, we won't sell it to you for $1099, here it is for free?"
We've all heard it one time or another. I bought Ashley because its high quality and I paid a lot of money for it. Where does the customer come up with this idea? By leafing through glossy magazines and seeing ads like this one. This picture emits high quality. Granite counter top, custom trim on the base, High $ faucet even the food looks like something on a high class home. People see this ad and say, that's what I want my house to look like. And all I have to do is buy these two bar stools. And two years later their coming to us. When we tell them Ashley isn't that great they are amazed. Its the rare customer that knows furniture sold at stores like Heilig-Meyers is crap.
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1179.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx386%2FEdwinNorthuis%2Fth_kitchen-dining-bar-counter-stools-hb-2.jpg&hash=40b255428b9d3659583a23a6cfd86c33) (http://s1179.photobucket.com/user/EdwinNorthuis/media/kitchen-dining-bar-counter-stools-hb-2.jpg.html)
For those customers its up to us to educate them. Not an easy task. We're some small fish in a huge ocean. And chances are the folks who shop Ashley will turn right around and do it again.
My business isn't going after that type person. I'm going after people who are a little more educated. Who already know most store bought furniture is made cheaply. People who own Mid-century, vintage or antiques. These people are far and few between but as everyone keeps pointing out upholsterers are becoming that way too.
As far as technology, this is the digital age. Very few upholsterers in my area are up to speed getting their presence on the internet. I myself am slowly getting there. And I'm getting a lot of calls and e-mails from people who found me through one of the 7 or 8 sites I'm on.
If your going to try to compete with manufactured furniture you will loose. Technology is great but a small shop will never justify the expense of half million dollar machines to increase productivity. It's hard not to see manufactured furniture as competition but that is what we must do. Become the guy that people go to because your reputation emits high quality, because you ARE expensive and when their friends ask they are proud to say, Yeah I had Doyle do it.
One of my customers carried Ashley. It accounted for something like 95% of their pre- and post-delivery repairs. There were some times where the company was just told to throw it away and they'd send a new one. The stuff was literally so cheap it was cheaper to ship a new piece from China and 2/3 of the way across North America than to spend an hour to fix it. And sometimes, I'd just have to inspect and declare as "non-repairable" at the store's request (broken out particle board, etc.)
I've had worse though. The delivery company for another brand would call me and have some repairs. I go in to do a 5 piece bedroom set and 4 of the pieces would have damage right out of the box (often times it was damaged or poor workmanship before going into the box). And of those pieces often there would be 3-6 spots on each that needed some repair or touch up.