Can anyone give me some feed back on the two? I have a customer who wants to have some cushions upholstered for his sail boat in Sunbrella, the cushions are located below deck. but Miami only carries Outdura. I would like to keep the sale, but I might have to find a supplier for Sunbrella If my customer is steadfast on staying with it.
Is he wanting Sunbrella marine canvas like you use for bimini's or Sunbrella outdoor furniture fabric? I'm doing my dining room chairs in Sunbrella furniture fabric simply because the room has sliding doors facing East and gets a huge amount of UV exposure. I want a fabric that doesn't fade, but looks like it belongs in the house, rather than on an awning.
If he's wanting to use marine canvas, then I don't think there's much difference between Sunbrella and Outdura for that application. Either should work fine.
June
Personally I like Outdura for cushion work. It is basically the same as Sunbrella 100% Acrylic. But it doesn't stretch. There isn't as many patterns to choose from and I think Outdura might be a slight bit thinner than Sunbrella furniture grade. Price is close to equal so that isn't much of a deciding factor.
He wants the marine grade. He was also thinking about the Sunbrella plus, which I guess has a vinyl bonded to the back side, but he wasn't totally sold on the plus fabric.
Sunbrella plus would be a waste of money for cushions if you ask me. Either Outdura or Sunbrella would do fine.
Funny you say that Outdura doesn't have stretch. I hadn't ever used it until we bought a bunch at an auction recently. I thought it was quite stretchy building boat tops with it. Everything turned out great but I didn't like it. Seemed much softer and thinner than Sunbrella. I think it would probably be the better of the two for seating.
*edit* Sunbrella plus doesn't have vinyl backing, that's Seamark. Plus has a backing that kind of looks like iron on interfacing, a whiteish flocking thats supposed to increase waterproofing but still breath.
Personally I think Your customer has just enough knowledge to be dangerous. I think he is "over building" these cushions based on what he has read.I would use Sunbrella furniture . That is what is is designed for , and it is more comfortable than the boat topping or outdura.
If you use Outdura: I had a problem with the blue in that the colour is different if you turn the fabric. i.e a piece cut up the roll looks different than a piece cut across the roll.
Sunbrella has a name... that's about where it ends. Kind of like Naugahyde was years ago for vinyl.
Both are solution dyed acrylic, most of their acrylic fiber comes from the exact same producer (Dolan). There are only 2 and a half solution-dyed acrylic producers in the world, and Dolan is by far the largest producer. The fading warranties that they offer are actually a passthrough from the fiber producer.
The only thing that Glen Raven, Outdura, Recasens, etc. do is weave their own fabric from the fiber. Their weaving and finishing capabilities are what separate each from each other, and that's where the differences begin. Some would contend that one or the other is the "best", but what quantifies "best"? Depending on what a customer cares about, different things can quantify best.
If you mean longest time before they stretch/sag, you need to look at how they're woven (Sunbrella has developed a poor reputation for this). If you mean longest lifetime for fading, they'll all fall into same realm, because the fiber is made by the same company (for the most part). If you mean made in America, Outdura is the only one who can claim 100% made in America, as some Sunbrella is made domestically and some overseas.
With all of that said, and for me, we distribute both Recacril and Outdura... we used to distribute Sunbrella, and dropped it many years ago. I am partial to Outdura because it's made in the USA, they strictly use Dolan fiber (known to be the best), they are extremely quality-oriented, and the people that are involved in the company from the top down are top notch, courteous, professional, and genuinely care about the product they put out. Not saying the others aren't, but I can tell you that we've dealt directly with 4 different acrylic manufacturers (Glen Raven, Recasens, Sunfield, Outdura) and the people at Outdura really shine.
I hope this helps coming straight from a distributor.
Best regards,
Andrew
Quote from: Darren Henry on May 12, 2012, 10:38:45 am
If you use Outdura: I had a problem with the blue in that the colour is different if you turn the fabric. i.e a piece cut up the roll looks different than a piece cut across the roll.
Do you meen with the fabric turned 90• with the frai. Going a different direction. I learned. Ot to do that with us. Della years Go as the shade changed.
I love outdura I fi d it as good as us brew maybe a bit tighter. Weave.
Outdura also has. For furniture grade fabric plain and with pro te that I would rather use
It's what I used on my salon when I had my. Suisse as it had Lot of light
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy102/Mike8560/BLue%20Dolphin%201/photo4-10.jpg
Peppy, I think you might be confusing sunbrella plus with something else.
Unless the stuff over there is different to mine. ;D
;) I used to use a fare bit of it, it doesn't have a backing, it is just a coating, you can just about see the difference in the face & backside. Supposed to be more waterproof than the uncoated.
No I wouldn't use it for cushions it's a bit stiff..
Suzi
No Suzi, that's what I meant. Just described it badly I guess. The picture in my head and what gets typed don't always match ;)
I was reading up on Recasens a bit ago out of curiosity. I seem to remember their website saying they bought Outdura recently. I guess there's less and less difference between brands. As time goes by there'll be one manufacturer with a few flavours.
All these fabrics are much the same but also different. Kind of like how all sewing machines make a lock stitch, but some lock stitches are better than others (my old timey treadle machine's stictch 'locks' up after you pull out 20 or so stitches)
I read Outdura uses a thicker fibre than others giving it a stronger tear strength. Also maybe why it frays so much?
Peppy,
Recasens did not buy Outdura. Outdura was purchased last year by Sattler.
As I posted earlier, Outdura uses the same fiber the others do, and has a comparable tear strength. Top Notch has a significantly higher tear strength than the acrylics, but that's because it is a polyester, not an acrylic.
-Andrew
Quote from: ahkahn on May 14, 2012, 09:55:29 am
Peppy,
Recasens did not buy Outdura. Outdura was purchased last year by Sattler.
As I posted earlier, Outdura uses the same fiber the others do, and has a comparable tear strength. Top Notch has a significantly higher tear strength than the acrylics, but that's because it is a polyester, not an acrylic.
-Andrew
Oops!! Sorry, my mistake! I guess I should post after my coffee's perked!
Rereading it maybe sounds like I'm hard on outdura. I don't mean to be. My recent outdura jobs turned out fine in the end, but seemed touch and go in the during. You like what you know, right? I have ten years experience with Sunbrella. A different cloth behaves differently. The seams on the outdura seemed way more 'pucked' and bias stitches seemed wierdly elongated or something. But it all came out in the end.
Any cloth has strengths and weaknesses. One end per inch difference is an entirely different fabric.
I used a lot of coastguard before it was Dickson as they were 60" and years ago it was a better price then sunbrella 60" I never even buy. 46" anymore but I did a lot of smaller. Stow beam. BOats then.
Then sunbrella de ised t buy coastguard I liked it I like and use slot of outdura and like Recacrill also. It I still see streach. Perhaps the puckers seams has somthing to do with thread tention peppy I don't have that trouble.
Then a company unite. Was. BOught by John Boyle glen raved bought Boyle and a strip for tri V
Should have been asboyle ;)
Coulda been the tension Mike. Or 'operator error'. Turned out good at any rate.
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1020.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf328%2Fpeppypower%2FBoats%2Fth_536966_301004109968731_108501562552321_732500_468559166_n.jpg&hash=e075801ab8310ba1e63484f909d0ad40) (http://s1020.photobucket.com/albums/af328/peppypower/Boats/?action=view¤t=536966_301004109968731_108501562552321_732500_468559166_n.jpg)
I started out using Recacril. I liked the fabric and it gave me an edge in my market. All the other topper and awning makers were still using Sunbrella so I built a marketing edge around Recacril. Then two things happened. Miami started carrying Sattler and and a couple of my competitors switched to Recacril after they begun having complaints from coach owners about the horrific stretch they had on slide toppers made with Sunbrella.
I did some research and then switched to Sattler to regain my competitive edge. I pay a buck or so more per yard for Sattler but I love the way it handles and machines while making toppers. Maybe it is just me but the " hand " on Sattler seems different then Recacril.
Thankfully none of my competitors have gone to Solarfix or Tenara thread. Since 80 % of my business is derived from broken Poly thread Solarfix gives me a huge edge in the market. My use of Solarfix ( along with Sattler fabric ) sells my jobs to customers.
I booked 3 orders from customers at the recent rally who have two year old slide toppers made with Sunbrella and Poly thread. All three are stretched out, deformed and the thread is broken. If my competitors ever switch to Sattler and Solarfix I am going to be in trouble. At that point I am going to have to sell my work on my good looks and charm and both of those have been hopelessly lost with age. :)
Chris
Mojo,
Awesome story - it's nice to hear a testimonial like that.
Peppy,
I couldn't agree more!
-Andrew
Mojo with the toppers not being easy to remove kinda permanent I'm surprised they don't use tenara.
With a boat canvas it easy to remove and resew. If a customers asks I alway tell them to up ost barge of the thread can. E saved if they don't mind bringing it to be resewn
So you've. Ever seen a shrunk topper only streached I've see. E Ty of adult shrunk sunbrella covers and tops morse covers its probly because they are removed and have the chandelier to shrink
The word I got from an industry expert was that the awning manufacturers use the cheap poly thread knowing it will break in a couple years. They rely on repeat fabric replacement as part of their revenue stream.
Pretty damn sad when you consider that the owner of a quad slide coach can pay $ 800.00 just for the removal of the old and installation of the new fabric. This is one reason why my business has been so good.
But despite being extremely busy and having to sew 6 days a week to keep up I am a small fish in a big pond. Consider this - I only serve two coach owners associations and they are not the largest of the many out there. This is why I turn down all requests to attend rallys from other associations as well as I keep my name out of sight as much as possible with other associations. The two I service keep me so busy I could never handle another owners association. I avoid the FMCA shows and rally's like the plaque. I would need a team of stitchers if I attended their rallies or advertised with them.
Outside of providing fabric replacement I also support the associations at their rallys by doing seminars on toppers and awnings as well as providing technical support in awning/topper assemblies.
Maybe once I have played these two associations out and when business slows down to a crawl I will expand into other associations - one at a time. Until then I am in hiding. :)
Chris
Mike:
I still have not figured out Sunbrella. I cannot get a handle on it. I get the chance sometimes to inspect the old toppers made with Sunbrella. Most are stretched out badly. But I have seen a few that looked as if they shrunk.
I am wondering if maybe different climates have something to do with this. My customers are located all over the lower 48. The vast majority though come from owners who spent time in California, Arizona, Nevada and Florida - all sunny climates where UV rays kill the Poly thread. In these cases the old fabric seems to all be stretched.
In the cases I have seen shrinkage it has all been in the length and not the width. In other words it shrinks up from the ends. The two sides that wrap around the roller tubes all seem to stretch. Like I said I cannot get a handle on it. I do not know if it was improper installation or what. The killer for the toppers is the water pooling on top of the fabric. Some are so big that I have estimated that 40 - 50 lbs of water can pool on top of them after a heavy rain. This is why I use double row stitching around the entire perimeter and use Solarfix. I seen a lab test where Poly thread lost nearly half its strength over a 3 year period.
I did have the chance to get on top of a couple of my customers buses who have my toppers. I am very pleased with the way the Recacril has held up. No stretch or shrinkage. I just started using Sattler less then a year or so ago so it is to early to know how that will perform but I am guessing it will perform as good or better then the Recacril.
Chris
I've found that all Sunbrella is not created equal (my opinion). Different colors - probably produced from different fiber manufacturers - have a different hand, SEEM to have a different weight - even though it's all stated as a 9 oz acrylic, and hold up differently. I've seen 20 year old Sunbrella covers that look like they were made last year and some 2 year old pieces that look 10 years old.
I've made only one cover with Recacril (for our own boat) and so far I'm not impressed. It sewed up beautifully, but doesn't seem to keep the rain out and we've been stuck in a monsoon pattern (inches and inches!) for a month. Rain mists through it more easily than Sunbrella it would appear, though I haven't been under it personally in a downpour. All I see is the water in the cockpit that HAD to come through.
One of us, when time permits, needs to unweave the various makes and pattern the weave on paper. I'll bet then we could see just where the stretch is made possible and how much so. One thing I didn't like about Recacril as well was how easily it unraveled after cutting (regular scissors). I had a hard time getting binding on the seams before they were all ragged. I doubt that's the weave - probably just the finish they put on (or don't put on) after weaving.
June
Quote from: JuneC on May 16, 2012, 06:23:16 am
One of us, when time permits, needs to unweave the various makes and pattern the weave on paper. I'll bet then we could see just where the stretch is made possible and how much so. One thing I didn't like about Recacril as well was how easily it unraveled after cutting (regular scissors). I had a hard time getting binding on the seams before they were all ragged. I doubt that's the weave - probably just the finish they put on (or don't put on) after weaving.
June
Art school to the rescue! I got a Material Art and Design degree in textiles. I wove many a fancy dish rag. I believe all 'waterproof' canvas is warp faced. Meaning the threads you see on the cloth are the ones wound around the loom. The weft is buried inside the warp and isn't seen. Unraveling is a feature of this type of cloth. The amount of unravel is dependant on how many ends per inch there are (weft threads) how many picks (warp threads) there are determines the tightness of the fabric. Please don't take this as gospel, it's been a while....
I agree with you about the different colours feeling different. The sunbrella guy did tell me some thread colours came from Europe and some came from China. Personally I think the ones from China would be better, since they're likely allowed to use the really good chemicals.
When I was in NH I used to do a lot of aft curtians here none.
Tou know like this
http://www.bayviewcanvas.com/files/31_sea_ray_sport_top.jpg
I alway due to size would see a seam up the center with two runs top to bottom
Anyway I Finnish with the act. An as nice and tight then I'd see the boat a few month later and it had saved Nd. Is rather the. A nice tight cover with a straight or er it was. Us Ed sagging streached
It now here I don't know if it's the heat but I've seen many co moot covers with the fabric run the same front to back that have shrunk. D it hard or inposible to snap all or any of the rest snaps.
Recacrill I hear is not susposed to streach. It I've seen it streach I havnt seen it shrink yet. On my boat I have outdura and I'm happy so far. I also havnt been call ight in a soaker under it yet. I head for home when it looks sketchy
Quote from: Peppy on May 16, 2012, 09:31:00 am
Art school to the rescue! I got a Material Art and Design degree in textiles. I wove many a fancy dish rag. I believe all 'waterproof' canvas is warp faced. Meaning the threads you see on the cloth are the ones wound around the loom. The weft is buried inside the warp and isn't seen. Unraveling is a feature of this type of cloth. The amount of unravel is dependant on how many ends per inch there are (weft threads) how many picks (warp threads) there are determines the tightness of the fabric. Please don't take this as gospel, it's been a while....
TAG! :D You're "IT"... :P I'm volunteering you to do the analysis - in the off-season, of course. I can send you several samples of new and old Sunbrella just to see if there's a difference and some Recacril. I don't have any Sattler. Maybe Mojo can send you some of that.
Mike, I do believe my Recacril cover has stretched a bit, but probably not as bad as Sunbrella does.
June
Peppy, et al,
None of the acrylics are "waterproof". They are "water-repellant". That's why products like 303 and Aqua-Tite exist, to restore that water repellency. Heavy rains and direct water pressure will always come through regardless of whether it was Sunbrella (new or old), Recacril, Outdura, or another.
Waterproof would be a Top Gun, Odyssey, Aqualon, or any of the other "coated" fabrics. That's why they require a vent and acrylics do not.
-Andrew
Sorry Andrew, I said 'waterproof' as a lazy shorthand. And that's why I put it in quotes. Water-shedding? Water-mostly-keeping-outing?
Haha... no problem, Peppy... 8)