I am in a tiny, tiny rural location. We are in the poorest, least populated, least educated parish in the state. There is a huge chasm between the types of people that live here. Some of the locals are so poor and uneducated that upholstery in not even in their realm of doing....ever. Then there are those who have relocated here (like me and my husband) to be out in a rural setting and soak up the ambience of the country. Neighboring my little town is another little town that is the hoidy toidy rich community. It is 5 miles away, but almost like a different culture. (It is) Baton Rouge is 20-30 miles away. There is a shop there that has always been the "gold standard" of namedropping. "I had my wingback re-done at Denicolas". I have worked for the last couple of years with a decorator who has thrown work my way. Because she does the leg work with the customer usually picks fabric (and make the mark up, no doubt) I've enjoyed the clientele that she has referred as they have appreciated my quality and labor pricing.
Didn't hear from the decorator over the holidays. Till today. I get a message from her, pre-empting a call from a customer that she is referring. The decorator asks me to either GIVE HER a 15% kickback on my price. I told her that my prices are low enough, I don't want to give up any percentage. Then she asked if I could go up 15% on my price and give it to her.
In the middle of all this, I get a call from the customer, wanting a ball park estimate. I say I need photos of chairs and fabric first before I throw out any numbers.
In past locations, other cities, any time I worked with decorators, I never met the customer. I just dealt with the decorator...I've always gotten the impression that they (decorators) consider us upholsterers peons. I just ignored the condescending crap.
There are 2 other upholsterers in my rural area. They are long time and established and their work, although I haven't seen a lot of their work, is adequate.
This decorator has said that she's worked with them in the past.
I sent her a message and asked if she had requested a kickback from them as well....(by this time, this is all not sitting well with me)
Her reply...No I could but just don't know them as well as I do you and not as happy with their quality.
Her next text to me...Plus I recommend you first!
My reply to her....I need to think about this.
Bottom line is this, the more I think about this, I'm really pissed. These f*cking decorators can't do crap without us making them look good. And every single one of them has some kind of attitude, holier than thou.
The only thing I'm really thinking about is how to tell her NO. HELL NO.
My overhead is low. My prices are low. I am less than half of Baton Rouge pricing. I am 25% lower that the other two guys local. I'm happy with what I make. (However I will go up on my prices, I think)
Input?
Perry
My policy with decorators has always been:
If they want me to remain anonymous, I will. But that means that THEY handle ALL interactions with the client. I'm just a nameless faceless blob who picks up their couch and brings it back recovered. If the customer tries to ask me anything........I'm like Sgt. Schultz..........."I know NUZZING".
BUT.......if they want me to deal with the customer directly regarding labor and yardage costs, pick-up/delivery scheduling, and all the "particulars" of the job, then that customer is fair game for all. If that customer wants to contact me directly next time and cut the decorator out of the equation........fine with me. Some decorators think they have permanent "dibbs" on a customer.
If a decorator wants to mark up my labor, then they have to do all the legwork. If they want a "kickback", then they'd better figure it into the job beforehand.
Sofadoc is right. Sounds like you are really PO'd at this decorator but if you want to continue working for her think of a congenial way to tell her no. She needs to do her own markups. Shes trying to pull a fast one and chances are she'll still use you if you let her save face.
Your prices are a bargain and she should appreciate that.
My input: take what you like and leave the rest.
QuoteMy overhead is low. My prices are low. I am less than half of Baton Rouge pricing. I am 25% lower that the other two guys local. I'm happy with what I make.
What 's the problem? Raise all your prices by 15%.
You're still around half of Baton Rouge pricing. You're now 10% lower than the other two local guys who don't have the same quality as you do, by the way.
Then ask the designer what do you get if you give her a 15% discount. If what she can give you floats your boat, you've got a win/win.
Your biggest problem will be how to remain happy making 15% more on your upholstery work. :)
What I like about this forum is that it's a great place to vent our emotions so we keep them out of our business decisions. I am convinced that allowing our emotions to get in to business decisions always costs us money. We may feel better about the end results, but it always cost us money.
Let us know how it goes.
gene
PS: And don't forget to buy a cake for this Designer for helping you to get your prices up 15%.
QuoteBottom line is this, the more I think about this, I'm really pissed. These f*cking decorators can't do crap without us making them look good. And every single one of them has some kind of attitude, holier than thou.
The only thing I'm really thinking about is how to tell her NO. HELL NO.
My overhead is low. My prices are low. I am less than half of Baton Rouge pricing. I am 25% lower that the other two guys local. I'm happy with what I make.
As kody said: Pass the last paragraph off to her and also mention that because you run such tight margins you cannot afford to discount your rate.Tell her that to work at 15% below already discounted is not cost effective for you---maybe she should find someone in Baton Rouge who doesn't need an income. She'll come round once she realizes that you aren't desperate for work and will not be bullied about. She probably thinks you're working so cheap because you are in tough and she wants to leverage that to up her greedy mark-up. [Do I hear an amen from someplace that grows corn?].
Being that small a community; be as pleasant and friendly as you can ----but stand your ground. And do not tell her how much you'd like to staple her boobs to the outhouse door and pass out free beer. Not very lady-like or professional LOL.
Gene and I were typing at the same time. Yes you do need to raise your rates (see previous rants on that subject!!!), but I'm not sure that you have to pass that profit off to her.
In my experience working with decorators usually ended up with me building the business and reputation of the decorator while I just got a pay check. I told my last decorator to come and get all their furniture and hit the road. It was really hard to do but I got tired of not getting all the information needed to give an estimate, or do the job properly and then getting blamed if something went wrong. The straw that broke the camels back was when they wanted me to eat the cost of a cushion that they messed up the dimensions on, plus eat the cost of an upgrade. Luckily I did not need their business to survive and life has been so much better without them. I am considering starting a marketing campaign in their area just to rub it in.
Here is a rough draft of my response.
Caroline, Since I have made initial contact with this customer, I am not willing to give up any percentage. In the future, you are welcome to mark my work up all you want, provided you are the only contact with the customer. This includes pick up and delivery. I will be more than happy to work in the background, anonymously.
I understand the tradition that decorators often mark up upholstery charges, I have worked with quite a few decorators. The decorator/upholstery relationship is all about balance. I do appreciate referrals you have sent my way.
Perry
Added note..the fact that I said pickup and delivery will certainly get her attention. She is consistently late (very late) for every meeting.
Perry, Sounds pretty good.
Back in the day, decorators were much more professional. They handled everything. And when they marked up fabric and labor, they basically earned that profit for all the legwork they did.
Then all the discount outlets began popping up, and the public began bypassing the decorator.
Now, they just want to set up a meeting between the upholsterer and client, and collect a "referral fee" (or kickback).
They just want to get paid without getting up off their own couch.
I still have a few good ones around here. But they aren't doing much. It's more of a "hobby for fun and profit" to them now.
Being late once in a while happens to the best of us. Being late "consistently" is rude. Being very late is unacceptable. I generally wait an extra 15 minutes then I'm off to the next appointment.
Here's what you could do. Add a line to the invoice and label it, 15% markup for decorator. Ruffle some feathers. ;)
Your letter is straight and to the point.
Very nice, Perry. You might also spell out that it includes fabric selection, photos of piece and dimensions so you can estimate yardage before giving a final estimate. (any other time-wasters?)
RE: Late to appointments
I had an interesting discussion with a customer yesterday. She appreciated that I arrived exactly when I said I would. We both were of the opinion that every gets the same 24 hours in a day and my time is as valuable as yours. The words she used were "Mutual Respect." She also appreciated that I had texted her a re-confirmation last weekend as we made the appointment six weeks ago, while she was a Florida sunbird.
I have found that people tend to respond better to text messages than voice messages. They are more time consuming for me (because rather than a short conversation, they end up putting individual thoughts in 3 or 4 messages), but more timely responses, rather than wondering if they ever got my voicemail.
This is revision of my reply...
Caroline, Since I have made initial contact with this customer, I am not willing to give up any percentage. In the future, you are welcome to mark my work up all you want, provided you are the only contact with the customer. This includes pick up and delivery, as well as yardage estimating and structure, padding and spring assessment. I will be more than happy to work in the background, anonymously. I will continue to deliver the high quality that I always have.
I understand the tradition that decorators often mark up upholstery charges, I have worked with quite a few decorators. The decorator/upholsterer relationship is all about mutual respect and balance. I do appreciate referrals you have sent my way.
Perry
I think what makes me the maddest about all of this is just the attitude that upholsterers are just worker bees and the decorator is the shiznet. Somehow, they get this sense of entitlement and it's almost a bullying thing..
Quote from: cajunpedaler on February 11, 2015, 06:16:41 am
I think what makes me the maddest about all of this is just the attitude that upholsterers are just worker bees and the decorator is the shiznet. Somehow, they get this sense of entitlement and it's almost a bullying thing..
I believe that decorators act on behalf of the best interest of themselves first, and their client second.
The upholsterer comes in third (sometimes, a distant third).
mutual respect, baby
This decorator sounds like a piece of work who is very impressed with herself. You're exactly correct that she needs to remember where she would be at without your high quality work.
Having said all of that, I think your draft is perfect. Short, concise and to the point! I say go for it!
Virginia
I snitched the term "mutual respect" from one of the responders...
Just to give editorial and creative credit where it's due.
I also think I'm going to contact, in person, the other two local upholsterers. I want to equalize our prices. In fact, I might try to make sure that my prices are a bit higher than theirs...I also want to build some sort of solidarity among us upholsterers..that will be a difficult feat. It's been my experience that small town upholsterers tend to be very skittish about customers, getting customers, keeping customers, always afraid the competition is going to take their customer. I love it when someone goes somewhere else and THEN comes back...they are so grateful for good honest work.
To snitch ideas from one place is plagiarism; to snitch from one place and acknowledge it is citing; to snitch from many places is research.
Let us know how this interaction turns out.
Quote from: cajunpedaler on February 11, 2015, 07:58:37 am
I snitched the term "mutual respect" from one of the responders...
Just to give editorial and creative credit where it's due.
I sent her my reply. Usually she is so all over her phone, texting that you are getting a message while you are still reading the current message that she's sent. I know she has received it. I'm sure she is mulling it over. This will be interesting.
Quote from: cajunpedaler on February 11, 2015, 08:02:19 am
I also think I'm going to contact, in person, the other two local upholsterers. I want to equalize our prices.
I would tread lightly there. Someone might accuse you guys of collusion. And it only takes ONE of the shops to renege on your agreement, and make the other two look bad.
Back in the 80's, my competitor in town approached me about "getting our prices in line with each other". It only took one anonymous phone call to find out that he had no intention of honoring those prices. He just wanted ME to raise my prices so he could under-cut me.
I was wondering if that was wise myself. I know that early on I contacted one of the other upholsterer's in Grand Island just to ask a question as far as locating a certain fabric. That dude jumped down my throat so bad I wasn't sure if I was ever going to be able to swallow again. There is no friendly circle of upholsterer's here. From where I sit, there is plenty of upholstery work to go around but everyone else seems to be very afraid of losing even one customer or job. 'course I've also had complaints about those same people from customers who have switched and stayed with me.
Virginia
I re-thought the notion of contacting the other upholsterers in the area. I imagined all the ways that good intentioned visit could backfire. So, for now, I am going to just stay the course. I still haven't heard from the prima donna decorator. If she goes away and never comes back, it's her loss.
Thanks all.
It would be nice to have a list or manual of average national prices for different pieces of furniture. Kinda like the automotive repair industry has. And what your attempting to do is a noble endeavor. But like Virginia points out this could be considered price fixing.
But even if it wasn't I think your going to find most upholstery shop owners hold their prices very tightly to their chest. It takes years to come up with a price list that is constantly being revised. Most shops don't have a set price list. They'll charge one price to one customer and another price to another customer depending on looks. One customer drives up in a Mercedes and husband is a doctor is going to get charged different from someone who drives up in a VW. I'm not saying I do this but some shops do.
One thing I will do is charge on perceived value. Take your fitness job for instance. They want you to do it as quick as possible. They don't want their machine down any longer than necessary. And for this rush job you charge a little extra. I'm the same way with repairs. People will pay more per hour compared to a full recover, a lot more.
What you'll find is shops that have been in business longer charge more. Shops that have a brick and mortar on a busy highway charge more. And shops, like yours, that do a higher quality work charge more.
I guess what I'm getting at is you have to figure what you need to make to be happy and make that your goal. You can't worry about what someone else charges or what kind of work they do.
We worked for a designer who, after we gave an estimate, we did the work, then she told us we charge too much and asked us to lower our price. Unbelievable.
Designers come and go, don't feel bad when you lose one. And don't count this one out yet. Shes probably surprised you stood up to her. There not used to not getting their own way.
Get ready for your best impersonation:
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For every decorator/designer out there..........somewhere there is an upholsterer who USED to work for them. But for whatever reason, they don't anymore.
Decorators have only 2 ways to maximize profits. Charge the client more, or pay the upholsterer less. For some reason, many decorators think there is an inexhaustible supply of upholsterers available. Good luck with all that.
It is fully 24 hrs later in this saga, and this decorator's norm has been to be all over the place in the beginning of a customer project. I sent her my reply and I'm sure it didn't sit well with her...so I'm assuming I can just write this beeyatch off....Hold on, folks, I'm doing my happy dance...!!
Thank you one and all for the suggestions, input, support...now I think I will go in my shop and staple something to smithereens...!!
Perry
Quote from: cajunpedaler on February 12, 2015, 07:44:43 am
I sent her my reply and I'm sure it didn't sit well with her...so I'm assuming I can just write this beeyatch off
I'm sure that as we speak, she is telling someone that she had to fire her upholsterer because they didn't meet her high standards.
Any time that a decorator has told me that they fired their last upholsterer, you can rest assured that it was probably the other way around.
Oh yeah.........and don't be surprised if she shows up at your door a year or two from now, acting like nothing ever happened. Like a bad penny, they always come back.
I run a business. I did my homework and I have a business plan. I know what I have to earn to "keep this vessel afloat". My price is my price. No jack-assing around.
I work with designers and every time I "establish" a working relationship with them I'm asked about "what kind of deal I can work with them". See my first paragraph. I know what I need to make to keep things moving forward for me on a personal level... . NO jack-assing around.
My price is my price. Built into "my price" are my many years of accumulated skill, my attention to detail,my ability to do what's asked of me in a timely and convenient manner, and my connections to professional suppliers. End of story!
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Quote from: bobbin on February 16, 2015, 01:58:53 pm
I run a business. I did my homework and I have a business plan. I know what I have to earn to "keep this vessel afloat". My price is my price. No jack-assing around.
I work with designers and every time I "establish" a working relationship with them I'm asked about "what kind of deal I can work with them". See my first paragraph. I know what I need to make to keep things moving forward for me on a personal level... . NO jack-assing around.
My price is my price. Built into "my price" are my many years of accumulated skill, my attention to detail,my ability to do what's asked of me in a timely and convenient manner, and my connections to professional suppliers. End of story!
Yepers Bobbin. People think all you have to do is pick up a staple gun and start stapling away and bingo your an upholsterer. Some people can't believe it takes years to learn. I get calls every week form people who can't believe that with 30 years experience I don't do cars. They seriously cannot believe there is a difference.
Rose received a call one day from a guy who needed a recliner recovered. She told him they cost more than a regular chair because they take longer to do. He told her, no they don't. Wait, what? She asked him if he has ever recovered one. Of course the answer was no.
There are some designers who can open some doors for you that on your own would never be open. That being said it doesn't hurt to checkout who your working for before you start the work. Just like every other business not all designers are ethical or are known for doing quality work.
I do have designers that once in a while ask me to pad the price a little , but those arraignments are made prier to any quotes. Usual I bill them and they bill the customer and any mark up they charge is up to them.
As far as other upholsters and shops go in my area ,we pretty much all get along there is plenty to go around .
I do not have a horse in this race but I am always curious and enjoy reading posts from you furniture guys and gals. It is an area of this business I have never jumped into and never will. Trust me. :) With that said I probably wouldn't be very good at it considering I have a very low opinion of designers. I just do not get it. With the way we are all so technically involved in society what good would a decorator do but eat up alot of good money ? Can't we all find design idea's on the internet ? Why not walk into a shop of a good furniture upholsterer and have them help you select fabric ?
Maybe the reason I despise decorators is because it is a pass down of the rich and famous. So someone who want's to keep up with their country club friend hires a decorator. The in / vogue thing.
Most of these small time decorators have never attended a formal college or University and studied interior design and decorating. They just hang a shingle out based on their ability to pick colors.
I guess I just feel like Mike and Dennis does and that is decorators can go pound sand.
I am alot like Bobbin, I have no time or the stomach for jack-assing around.
Back to the point of this thread. I sometimes have to deal with coach dealers and service centers. They are a royal PITA and I despise working with them. I hate seeing customers gouged and I hate cutting my margins for them to gouge their customers. But I have a golden rule that I never stray from. If a dealer wants to place an order they understand that THEY are the customer. I will not deal with their customer, even under warranty claims. I sell to a dealer on a thinner margin and the dealer does all the work. I want no contact with their customer. Ever. If the dealer wants dealer net pricing then the dealer will have to do all the work before and after the sale. At this point I am simply the manufacturer.
Thankfully I only do a few jobs a year for dealers. I hide from them and avoid them like I avoid Ebola. I think what this decorator wants is a referral fee Perry. In the business world it is common to give kickers ( a thank you fee ) to someone referring a deal to them. But in most cases it is small. Over the years I have gotten a lot of checks, cash and gift cards for passing on a deal to someone I know and who made money off the deal. I never expect it as I do it as a favor but their gesture, even if it is a thank you card is nice.
In your case I would be livid. I would never pass a deal on to someone and then demand a 15 % kicker in return. If I pass someone off to someone and they make some cash on the deal then cool. I pass deals on to others out of respect for that person. But for me to demand a 15 % kicker in return would be a low blow and show I was a greedy frigging pig and somehow make me look entitled. Actually for me to even ask for anything in return is rotten. You make referrals out of respect, admiration and friendships.
Chris
Since I've been self-employed I've "lost" very few designers because of my pricing. Sure, there are some I don't "see" regularly, but not every designer needs my skills on every job. And when the long "lost" come back to me I never assume they've been "price shopping".
I work really hard to crank out nice work, be fair with my pricing, and so far I think it's working...