It's time to stop preparing estimates with the simplified formula of material + labor = price. The fact is, when customers comes to our shops they are getting so much more than just material and labor.
Take a moment to think of all that the customers are really getting from us. How about the comfort of knowing that their cars are being worked on by qualified technicians in a secured and fully insured shop? What about fast turnaround isn't that worth something? How about our vast knowledge of the trade, the industry, the suppliers and the infinite amount of materials? That has got to count for something.
To read the rest of this rant: http://tinyurl.com/cdax4ap
Quote from: TheHogRing on March 27, 2012, 11:57:37 am
Take a moment to think of all that the customers are really getting from us. How about the comfort of knowing that their cars are being worked on by qualified technicians in a secured and fully insured shop? What about fast turnaround isn't that worth something?
wouldn't this be figured into the shop rate for labors I would if my safe secure location cost more overhead.
I know when I take my boat somewere to be worked on I pick a safe place that also doese quality work.
Most shops just pick a number for their hourly rate that they think is consistent with the industry without considering all aspects of their overhead.
If the customer thinks in terms of paying extra for a secured shop, then the shop should charge accordingly.
Most people don't give a ****what your overhead is.
If all your charging is labor and materials, what happens when the job doesn't go as planned? Has your labor charge already taken that into account?
Some customers think short-term and shop price, others think longer-term and shop quality. Seek out the customers who value quality as much as price.
Look professional, act professional, charge accordingly.
Rich
All points are essential to building and sustaining a high caliber business that properly rewards the business and the employees.
All said and that added is a perspective of the craftsmen and not necessarily that of the market. This can be verified by looking at the furniture industry in this economic downturn we have been it. Please take a look at the part of that business that has took a licking. Point to be made is those furniture industries from manufacturing to restoration by highly qualified craftmen are the ones mostly affected. All one has to do is drive down main street and those quality brands of days ago are no longer in business. All this has happened while low quality vendors, especially those with buy here and pay here maketing strategies, have flourished on a relatively scale.
That is a problem for any business sector, but after making a point out of it, what Rich pointed out about seeking business from quality minded consumers who can afford us is our only salvation. More bluntly, our type of business cannot survive on customers who cannot pay, on customers who do not value what we do; therefore the over ridding issue is how to more effectively market to those who do appreciate what we do and can afford our services?
How to do just that should be our focus and how can it be identified?
Interesting reading, the challenges of how to do quaity work are equally met by the challenges of understanding the market that will best reward us.
Thanks.
Doyle
This thread jumped out at me...we were discussing the friend discount on my thread.
But really the more my skills and knowledge grow, the more I feel I am worth. The quality of my product now versus 4 years ago is night and day. And I think most will agree that sewing is the easy part. Laying out projects and getting good measurements, and thinking 5 steps ahead so that you don't screw up...Thats the hard part.
Everyone remember the first corner dart you cut out. Then you look and saw it was now way too short....haha People have no idea...
Overhead is what it is, you have to keep the lights on.
Ed its like my other post of my balancing act patterning the deckboat over on the lift.
Hownto do it eith the bost. Ot on a trailer where one can walk around it. It eould have been easier but you have to pay if you dont oen a trsiler The customer come ter he was amazed how it was done
Owning a bost or a hotrod is a luxery doyle and one pays for that Unlike the buy here oay here customer.
I have yet to see a buy here pay here boat lot
Mike,,,You make a very very good point !!!
These are luxury items...and what we do keeps them up to date and/or protects their expensive purchase. And the one off products most of us produce here are amazing...
I have acquired a different view of the "friend discount".
If you are my friend, why would you not want to pay full price to help me out in my business? Why do you always want me to help you out by giving you a price break?
Two years ago a friend started her own business. She offered to give me a discount. I asked her what her full price was. She told me. I added 10% to her full price and that is what I paid her. She thought I was nuts. I told her that if she is my friend, why would I not want to help her out, at least once?!? She still thinks I'm nuts, but then, she thought that before she started her business.
gene
Speaking of "charging what you're worth", check out our article on how to increase your prices without angering customers. I think these 2 issues go hand-in-hand:
How to Increase Prices Without Angering Customers: http://www.thehogring.com/2011/04/06/how-to-raise-prices-without-angering-customers/
2 or more points.
friend discount. Sure I can do with a friend discount.
My friend works for the post office, or Bank, or Government, or phone company. I'd love to have a discount.
Oh, you wanted me to give a discount? OK, I have some weeds that need pulling, a house that needs painting, a car that needs fixing and so on. I'll work on your project while you cut my grass, make dinner, clean the bathroom, wash and wax my car, take my dog for a walk, clean up his droppings and so on. Some how this never works with my friends. Odd.
No, I don't give friend discounts.
But I do help friends paint their house, work on their car, let their kids spend the weekend at our house while they take a grown up weekend just the two of them, and so on.
Good friend but business is business.
OK if it's small them ok. Dinning chair or fix a seam but no sofa or chair or boat top. Sorry.
Point two a more important point.
Charging what you are worth.
THE SECRET ....
When people call and ask "How much?" it is for one reason only, they don't know how to buy upholstery work be it a boat, or car ,or sofa.
So what you do is not give a price right way. What you do is teach your customers how to buy your product or service.
What kind of foam and why
What kind of fabric and why
Why a 1965 sofa is better then a leather 2012 sofa even if you count the no payments till 2018.
Why upgrading your boat cushions will add years and comfort to their boating life style, and why they need you not Mr Low Price
Here is what I did with some good results. I wrote a phone script then condensed it down to bullet points.
So I wrote down my story and the quality furniture story and the cheap furniture story, and reduced it down to bullet points.
Then when someone called and asked "how much to upholster my sofa?" I would always ask:
Have I done work for you before?
Yes or no I would then tell my story that I planed out. In so I was also educating them on quality, furniture, new junk form Ashly Furniture and so on.
In about 1 or 2 minutes they knew I am a top notch upholsterer, and also I armed them with the knowledge of what to ask the next time they called an upholstery shop.
So when they went to the next shop on the list and asked not how much, but" do you use HR Foams and what Density? or How many years do you have in upholstery and what is your specialty? How long do you guarantee your work? and so on.
So what I am saying is, since most shops only quote price, since most customers always ask "how much?" You separate yourself from the rest pretty fast as professional, knowledgeable, trust worthy, quality minded, worth more then the others and so on. Get it?
Try it. Invest an hour or 2 making a phone/buying script, reduce it to bullet points, and focus on creating a buying criteria for your customer based on your product or service.
Test if and see if I am right.
There you go. You now have an answer, maybe not the only one, but one you can use.
I hope that makes sense.
and forgive my know it all attitude. But I am right. This will work if you will try it.
But do you end up getting the job? At your price?
Rich
Boats are a luxury item, common sense. But, are you guys saying all luxury item owners freely spend and accept your price at whatever? No, they don't.
The point I made with the changes in the furniture example of how - buy here marketers are doing not to bad- while quality name brand frurniture retailers have actually gone out of business is a sign of our market changes. I am believing also that the economy has had a down scaling effect on marketing to the luxury boat ownes crowd. Surely your not telling me that all luxury owners, of boats, are freely spending? Yes, some or alot maybe, who do realize that they are dealing with a luxury issue, consequently hasn't this economy put some check on the market that was there just a few years ago?
There is still a luxury furniture market but it isn't like it was before this economy took place. This economy has left its print almost everywhere.
Doyle
Quote from: DB on March 30, 2012, 06:05:11 am
Boats are a luxury item, common sense. But, are you guys saying all luxury item owners freely spend and accept your price at whatever?
I don't think anyone is saying that... I think that most people who have a passion for there boat or car will pay to have it look awesome... And like Bonehead said...give them the facts.
Hey they may not want to spend $$ on Tenara thread or Sunbrella Plus...that's ok. As long as they know whats out there I think they will respect you more going into the purchase...
Ive had rhe guy who askes is there a less expensive canvas
When i say yes. They may save $100 on there $1500 cover they see it isnt worth it to them.
Or the guy who i loose to the $250 bimini out of the dennis kirk catalouge. Snd its usualy 1' over tye fuys head too tall and looks dumb but for someone who has a nice boat or car. The eill spend what they have to
Just last week i had a guy bring me 3 yards of vinly seat msterial and wated me to sew premade pipes to replace a rv slide out topper. Im sure he wouldnt be a customer of mojo But i got a dinner out of it
Quote from: Rich on March 29, 2012, 05:57:04 pm
But do you end up getting the job? At your price?
Rich
Yes and no.
I may not get what I want, in that I still feel under paid for my skill, ability, knowledge and so on as compared to a Plumber or Mechanic or any other highly skilled trade or career. But I do get more then my competition and more often.
Side Bar:
Plus I spend less time messing with people who shop on price allow.
It's sounds odd, but instead of people complaining about my prices being to high,
they complain that their furniture may not be worthy,
(OK may sound like b.s. but... "Worthy") of my work. A big change. Back to my point:
First off, I'm showing myself as "THE" knowledgeable, skilled, well trained upholsterer who knows all the pain and problems and pit falls of new and used furniture(or boat or cars if that is your side of the business)
I am showing them the pain or the problem and then letting them know, I can take away the pain and make it all simply go away.
I hope that makes sense. Sorry don't have a lot of time to write today.
Anyway. I do get more money and more qualified yeses and spend very little time justifying my prices.
They call, I tell the story and educate them on how to buy.
They call around realizing no one else sounds as good and professional and has none of the answer to the pain I talked about so they then call back.
Also, it's a lot of other things as well not just a good story. It's that my whole business and marketing is about that core story and taking away my customers pain or fear of pain, or fear of loss.
But I agree also with Doyle. It's harder out there and not so much money and low cost SH*T, sorry that is what it is, is taking a tole. But people are starting to realizable a $600 sofa is just that, a $600 sofa mean to last 3 to 5 years.
In short, Try to develop a core story for you business and us it.
Google business core story to start.
Here is link to the guy I worked with to develop mine. It worked very well.
http://www.chetholmes.com/core-story-research-services.php
He also has a book on amazon http://www.amazon.com/The-Ultimate-Sales-Machine-Turbocharge/dp/1591842158/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1/187-4502571-9221169
Added after some thought:
Blowing smoke at least up my own skirt.
Maybe I'm being simple minded, but I have found that most of my challenges in business (or life) have had more to do with me and my idea or belief of what I'm worth or what I can do or should try way more then will it work or my customers. In other words, I've learned, for me, that the more I work though my own self limitations, the better my life, business and general happiness becomes. As they say the Gods will reward honest hard work.
So in that, as simple minded as it may sound, despite any misgivings that this does not work or that this will only work for other businesses or other people, I'd like to emphasize that despite "Cheap Selfish Customers" this has really help for me.
It's not that we are lacking answers. It's that we are lacking courage.
Everyone wants to loose 20 lbs, or about 1.5 stones for you Brits, but everyone who has not lose the 20 lbs is looking for their answer. Their Answer, You know how to loose 20 lbs in 3 days while eating Pizza and Ice Cream. At least that was the one I was willing to try. But the hard fact always comes to Diet and Working out. Sorry there is no such thing as a Crispy Cream Diet.
So this may not be the answer we are looking for, but it is an answer that has worked for me.
Give it a try. It may hurt but it may very well be worth it.
You know you business better then anyone. You could easy teach a class on how to buy your product or service. So...
Wow, what a good read this thread has been! it's one of the reasons I like this forum so much. Great ideas and thoughtful insights coupled with your skill and business acumen, doesn't get much better, you guys. :)
One., I really, really like "prepared speech 1"! The ability to take control of a telephone inquiry from the get-go is brilliant. I particularly like reducing "the call" to bullet points or a "flow chart" (of sorts) because it allows you to control the direction of the conversation . More importantly, you've set yourself up to do it in a polite, conversational, and eductional manner. Ahh... the art of diplomacy. Love it!
I have reached a point in my working life where I no longer wish to play "beat the clock" on a job that is marginally profitable, nor do I wish to struggle through something that is big, heavy (frequently dirty, too!) and leaves me feeling unfulfilled when it's finished. I'd rather "pass" on that stuff and focus on the stuff that I know is good, reliable money (marine canvas repair, clothing alterations) or the stuff that requires my skill/brain power and will look super when completed (drapery work, slipcovers, yacht interiors).
I gave an estimate a week ago that I now wish hadn't been so high. But I hadn't seen the sleep sofa with 6 cushions and I gave a high estimate for the slipcover. However, she may still call and if I think the price was too high I can always revise it down!
Quote from: bobbin on March 30, 2012, 12:55:25 pm
Wow, what a good read this thread has been! it's one of the reasons I like this forum so much. Great ideas and thoughtful insights
I gave an estimate a week ago that I now wish hadn't been so high. But I hadn't seen the sleep sofa with 6 cushions and I gave a high estimate for the slipcover. However, she may still call and if I think the price was too high I can always revise it down!
So I sound like a know it all. Sorry.
Or she may have just tossed the whole idea and move onto somethings else.
Business is a two way street. They can say no and you can too.
No to working for less
No to working for people that are a pain
No to ...
You too can decide what you want as well as your customers can decide for themselves.
There is no law that says you must take that job at any cost.
I know we have to eat.
Nobody "knows it all", One.! :) If they did you and I would run head to head. Lol.
The greater point I wanted to make was that my "high" estimate (for an unseen sleep sofa with 6 cushions) was basically a "shot in the dark" and quoted to CMA and weed out a "tire kicker". Interestingly, my immediate reaction to no response in 4 days was that my price was too high. But I've been surprised before and this may be one of those cases. Just because a slipcover job is in the front of MY mind doesn't necessarily mean it's on the front burner for the person who called me... . It may simply be something on the "list" that's not as important as scheduling new paint for the dining room, the landscaper, etc..
I understand with the greater clarity years past provide that "makin' it up with volume" is a foolish attempt to run down the unattainable. Every job must be profitable and "worth" the effort you put into it or you're basically "workin' for peanuts".
OK, now I'm getting a clearer picture. Reading the link to the CHI website, I like the quote: "We'll teach you the five most dangerous trends happening in auto manufacturing (for example) and the three things you need to know to avoid them. Call for a free briefing."
That is something that's being done a lot lately by the big guys. I get it every day when I turn on AOL and HAVE to navigate past the teaser "news" stories they post there. It irks me to have them there, but I don't see any way of getting rid of them. Sometimes, I just hit the "new mail" button and go right to my mail, but I'd be lying if I told you I do this all the time. Some headlines just grab my attention and I just HAVE to click on it :). That's what Chet Holmes is saying, use a teaser to grab a prospective customer's attention when there's a good chance he's just going to blow you off. But then, you better have solid info or he'll figure he wasted his time listening to you and for sure won't become a customer. When someone calls you or comes into your business, you already have their attention so the teaser phrase may not be neccessary (although in some cases it may be). The idea of convincing a potential customer that you are knowledgeable is a good one I think, but you could be spending alot of time educating people who are not your customers. That's why I asked how it was working for you. In that case, I think, it's a matter of properly reading your customer and letting the tire kickers walk.
Rich
Those attention grabbing teasers are a total turn-off to me. Most of the time they're lacking in any real substance.
I'm not saying this to criticize Hog Ring, but he does a lot of those "5 ways to do this" and "10 ways to do that". Everyone seems to like them. So maybe it's just me.
He did one several months ago on "5 ways to get paid on time". Just for fun, I asked the 15 year old kid next door if he could name 5 ways. He came up with:
1) get paid up front
2) take credit cards
3) sue them
I don't remember the other 2 that he said, but he got 3 out of the 5.
Yahoo did one on "5 ways to raise your credit score". It was all basic stuff. Like pay your bills on time, pay down your debt, pay off your credit cards, etc. All stuff that anyone could've came up with.
My favorite teasers are the ones for the local evening news that say something like:
THERE'S A DANGER LURKING IN YOUR HOUSE THAT COULD KILL YOU! :o
We'll tell you what it is....tonight at 10. ;)
Getting back to charging what you're worth, I'm sure that we'd all like to get more than we do.
My attitude has always been "Here's my price...take it or leave it". I'm not interested in hitting them with a bunch of catchy bullet points.
Who knows? Maybe if I used some of these strategies, I'd already be retired by now. ;D
QuoteYahoo did one on "5 ways to raise your credit score". It was all basic stuff. Like pay your bills on time, pay down your debt, pay off your credit cards, etc. All stuff that anyone could've came up with.
I think they also suggest cutting that daily $4.35 Double Latte down to maybe two days a week and bring your lunch instead of buying it. Made me wish I HAD been doing those things ???.
Rich
5 ways to appreciate attention grabbing teasers:
1. Understand that they are meant to tease, not educate.
2. If you find yourself "grabbed", it's not your fault. You were caught off guard. It happens to all of us now and then. It is in no way a reflection of your ability to pour piss out of a boot.
3. Realize that they are written at a 4th grade reading level, as is all news media. Randomly add the words "booger" and "fart" and they will be pure entertainment for any school child who can read.
4. Accept the fact that we live in a society that has been dominated by religious, and now scientific belief systems, that have created a false view of life that claims the physical world is the only true manifestation of reality, and this reality can easily be understood by 'cause and effect', i.e., everything that exists can be observed, measured, and reproduced, hence, "The top 5, or 6 or 10 or how ever many ways to do something."
5. Put scotch tape on your cat's front left paw.
gene
Gene: I'm absolutely NOT kidding. Those 5 teasers that you just posted are without a doubt the most informative 5 teasers that I have EVER seen here, or anywhere else (the funniest too).
Even #5 has more substance than "pay your bills on time".
The whole 5 or 10 way teaser thing reminds me of the story "The Emperor's new clothes".
Through pure peer pressure, nobody wanted to admit that they didn't see anything. Finally, when one person spoke up, the rest agreed.
Wait a minute......does this mean that are 5 ways to pour piss out of a boot? Dang! I still ain't figgered out the first way!
Psst... Sofa., the directions are on the sole of the boot...
I really don't use teaser copy much.
I"ve tried it but never had much luck with it.
Mainly I educate be it videos, a quick bullet point phone script or what ever.
The main thing is substance not just headlines.
5 ways to increase customer satisfaction
3 thinks that may flag you for an IRS audit.
How I learned the Piano in 2 weeks.
Or what ever.
If you want to learn great grabber head lines. Read the tabloid trash at check out.
3 headed baby from mars.
Obama's Love Child is from Outer Space.
How Nancey Metoo lost 40 lbs in 3 weeks eating Creepy Cream Donuts.
Debby Myname's Final Tragic Days.
Mark Notreal's mistress tells all before she is found dead.
New Photos from Sealed Investigation: Mark Notreal's mistress officially called a suicide even thought found strangled in the nude.
If only reality could be so cool.
We at The Hog Ring put together our heads to come up with a title that SofaDoc could appreciate. It's less teaser and more direct:
If You Feel That You Are Not Being Paid Enough For Your Services and That You Deserve More, You May Want to Consider Adjusting Your Prices So That They Match Your Desired Income
A bit longer than "Charge What You're Worth", but exactly as clear.
Studies in online communications have shown that people who read on the web prefer lists, bullet points and quick take aways that they can easily digest and move on.
Quote from: TheHogRing on March 31, 2012, 02:48:22 pm
Studies in online communications have shown that people who read on the web prefer lists, bullet points and quick take aways that they can easily digest and move on.
Believe me, I understand why you title your articles the way that you do. It's a short attention span world that we live in now.
It's not just web readers either. Any front page story in a major newspaper probably has an inset with a synopsized list of bullet points that give the reader a quick gist on page 2.
Again, no offense to Hog Ring, or anyone else who uses these methods.
Being a couch guy, Hog Ring's articles don't always have relevance for me. But I appreciate his input on this discussion board.
I'm a big fan of
Plain Language guidelines. Other than my elementary school spelling and grammar lessons, it's done the most to improve my written communications.
http://www.plainlanguage.gov/
That brings to mind a question:
- Is a bullet list with just one item still a list?
Maybe I'm being simple minded, but I have found that most of my challenges in business (or life) have had more to do with me and my idea or belief of what I'm worth or what I can do or should try way more then will it work or my customers. In other words, I've learned, for me, that the more I work though my own self limitations, the better my life, business and general happiness becomes. As they say the Gods will reward honest hard work.
Quote
Maybe I'm being simple minded, but I have found that most of my challenges in business (or life) have had more to do with me and my idea or belief of what I'm worth or what I can do or should try way more then will it work or my customers. In other words, I've learned, for me, that the more I work though my own self limitations, the better my life, business and general happiness becomes. As they say the Gods will reward honest hard work.
Quote
I still don't know how to get the light blue quote thing working?!?
OneBoneHead: I recently heard this:
There is a door that you want to enter, but you cannot. An elf is standing by the door and is preventing you from going through. The elf does this by saying only two things. The first thing the elf says is "You are not good enough." If you are able to think yourself through this statement and dismiss it, then the elf will certainly stop you with it's next statement, "Who do you think you are?"
Just a thought for anyone to think about, if anyone chooses to think about it.
Gene
QuoteThere is a door that you want to enter, but you cannot. An elf is standing by the door and is preventing you from going through. The elf does this by saying only two things. The first thing the elf says is "You are not good enough." If you are able to think yourself through this statement and dismiss it, then the elf will certainly stop you with it's next statement, "Who do you think you are?"
Here's how I do the quote;
1-COPY the text
2-Hit reply
3-Click on the second to the last icon in the bottom row of BBC tags (looks like a cartoon bubble)
4-Place cursor between the two QUOTES in the brackets.
5-Right click PASTE
I use RO 8:28 as my guide.
Rich
Quote from: gene on April 01, 2012, 08:10:10 am
I still don't know how to get the light blue quote thing working?!?
You mean like this?
I click on "Insert quote" in the upper right corner of the person's dialog box that you want to quote from. Then I go back and delete all but the exact quote that I want to cite. But be carefull not to delete the quote brackets at the beginning and end of the selected quote.
Back to attention grabbing, "Plain English" titles, I want to clarify my stance. I have NO problem with them as long as the article has some substance.
Example: 2 GREAT WAYS TO LOSE WEIGHT
1) Several paragraphs that basically tell you to diet
2) " " " " " " " exercise
I could've figured those out on my own.
HOW TO PICK THE BEST PLUMBER
1) Ask for references
2) Call the BBB
3) Shop around
Well......
DUH!!
QuoteHOW TO PICK THE BEST PLUMBER
1) Ask for references
2) Call the BBB
3) Shop around
Well......DUH!!
Couldn't get it work your way, but I like it better since it includes the name of the person your quoting.
How about the guy who placed ads for a pamphlet entitled "How to make millions overnight"
The pamphlet was short and to the point; Do what I'm doing! :D
Rich
Quote from: Rich on April 01, 2012, 02:35:05 pm
Couldn't get it work your way, but I like it better since it includes the name of the person your quoting.
I'm not sure why it isn't working for you guys.
Go to the Topic Summary just below your reply message box. Pick the post that you want to quote from, and click on "Insert quote" in the upper right corner. The entirety of the post will now appear in your reply box. Just go in and delete what you don't want, but leave the quote brackets at the beginning and end.
Does that make any better sense?
Still baffled.
Maybe it's the browser you're using?
Rich