I just ran into a customer and came out of our discussion shocked. Big Time. It was something I never considered before.
He called me one day and asked about a Patio awning and I told him I could make one. He asked what kind of material I suggest and I told him TopGun. Away he went doing his research and I will be damned he also researched me. He came to this site and read through our posts.When I met up with him to get the measurements he told me " your very active on your upholstery forum ". I about crapped my pants right there.
Then I thought about the numerous threads we have had bashing PITA customers. Then I thought, what if we have a lot of customers out there doing this.
What do you all think about making this forum readable to members only ? You would have to create an account and become a member in order to read our posts. Obviously it is something Ken would have to approve but still, I do not like customers coming on here to read up on me. I like to think of this place as a forum for professionals who can come and get answers to their questions, support one another and vent their frustrations.
Am I being paranoid? How do the rest of you feel about knowing your customers are reading up on you ? I just wanted to put this out there for everyone to discuss. :)
Chris
I wouldnt have a problem carrs dite had a forum like that member only and a puplic forum FRaggeds 8 also .
HE didnt read anything bad on you did he? and a thread on a pia customer .... if the shoe fits :P
I'd be interested in a "members only" part of the forum. Not necessarily for bashing customers (AKA letting off steam before we kick the dog), but for other issues such as pricing.
I sometimes tell my customers about the occasional "knucklehead" customers that I have to deal with. They usually laugh along with me.
I think that anybody who has ever worked anywhere understands that some people can be difficult.
It's occured to me in the past that we should make more of an effort to recommend the products sold elsewhere on this site when DIY'ers ask for product advice. This is how Ken makes his living. He's provided us with a great forum. We should show our appreciation any way we can.
If it's something that everyone feels strongly about, I certainly would have no objections to a "members only "side of the forum. But I personally am not paranoid about any of my customers reading my posts.
Chris: How did that guy figure out that you're Mojo? You seldom mention your last name, or the name of your business. That guy must've read DEEP.
You have to realize nothing on the Internet is sacred. A search can bring up many things in closed sites as well as open ones. Unless the Admin stops the spiders from crawling it will be made public. Better to not bash or at least realize the fact.
In reply to your question Chris, I would welcome a closed forum. It is nice to have discussions with professionals only. Even though you can't be sure the odd client will slip in all in all it is a great idea.
Just because everyone is out to get me doesn't mean I'm paranoid.
I never talk about prices on this forum so that's not an issue with me.
I never mention customers' names on this forum so that's not an issue with me. If a customer were to accuse me of talking about them on this forum I would tell them it can't be them because the forum headmaster won't let us use that kind of language. LOL
I would be ok with a members section, but I don't think it's necessary. We don't get a lot of DYI'ers. And I think that folks who are DYIing are probably not going to be paying for upholstery services anyway. I don't think it would get more professionals to join in, although it would be great if it did.
If you don't want it read by Joe Q. Public, then don't put it on the internet! Hello!!!
gene
For professionals only would be OK with me. I see advantages to that, esp. the pricing issue.
But so is this. The way I see it, it's important for customers to understand that we're in business to make money, not be jerked around and nickel and dimed or nit-picked to death! there is a part of me that thinks a forum like this provides the necessary "dope slap" to those who persist in thinking it's all about the cheapest price going.
The world is full of "lurkers", those who read and don't participate for whatever reason. If they wish to do the "Nancy Drew" or "Hardy Boys" thing then let 'em go for it. How lucky are they to have that much time to spend "fact finding"?
::)
Something else to consider with a "pro members only" section.
Somebody would have the task of approving new "pro members".
They would have to check their credentials to see if they're worthy of pro status.
Ken seems to have a full plate now just banning spammers.
I tend to agree with Bobbin's "dope slap" point of view.
As for discussing (or not) wholesale pricing, I don't see the importance of keeping it private, especially since EVERY TOM, DICK, and HARRY can now go online, and buy stuff cheaper than I can anyway (and get free shipping to boot).
I thought the 'Business of Upholstery' was closed to to the public and only open to members?
I never say anything on here I wouldn't say to anyone in person. I don't think restricting access to information will increase the value of the information. I think the best thing about this place is how nice and helpful and open we are to some goofball trying to upholster something. By sharing our knowledge, at the very least, we increase the worth of our trade in his mind. He attempted upholstery and realized it's a trade and now has respect for the craft. Larry Lurker is welcome to do so, maybe someday he'll come up with the Next Big Thing and let us in on it.
And what are the prerequisites for being a member anyway?
I agree with most of the posts here. If a customer is more reasonable - courteous - respectful of my time and skill because I've said that difficult customers will get a PITA upcharge, then more's the better. Some need to understand that honey draws more flies than vinegar. It's about maintaining a professional relationship. I can imagine that it was a shock to hear someone mention this newsgroup in a customer situation, but it's all public, and I never put anything on the Internet that I don't want to world to know.
June
Quote from: Mojo on January 19, 2012, 04:32:16 pm
I just ran into a customer and came out of our discussion shocked. Big Time. It was something I never considered before.
He called me one day and asked about a Patio awning and I told him I could make one. He asked what kind of material I suggest and I told him TopGun. Away he went doing his research and I will be damned he also researched me. He came to this site and read through our posts.When I met up with him to get the measurements he told me " your very active on your upholstery forum ". I about crapped my pants right there.
So Mojo (I won't call you Chris anymore) Was the guy laughing at you or giving you a hard time. Of course you can't tell us because he's probably watching. What if we all just went by street names like "The Mug" or something?
I like the occasional layman coming on and stirring it up a bit.
Quote from: Peppy on January 19, 2012, 06:28:07 pm
I thought the 'Business of Upholstery' was closed to to the public and only open to members?
No, anyone can view it. But you have to be a member to post topics, or reply.
I've actually invited customers, supply salesmen, and other stitchers to visit this forum.
One of them reported back to me that he found it to be "mind numbingly boring".
When I ask some of the others if they visited the forum, the answer is usually something like "Huh?......Oh......uh....yeah....sure". ::)
One day, my brother-in-law peeked over my shoulder while I was reading this forum. He read a few topics, then proclaimed that he'd rather shoot himself in the face than read this crap. :D
It ain't for everybody, I guess.
I have wanted to discuss pricing strategies but wont now. :) There were several other things I would have liked to have discussed and get input on but didn't. Thank God for that.
My concern is one of my customers grabbing something I say out of context and re-posting on an RV Forum. At that point I am out of business since 95 % of my business comes from these forums.
I guess my point is that customers, because of the internet, are getting very good at research. This guy knew more about TopGun then I did and he knew the pricing schedules from the Miami site. Thankfully you cannot get wholesale prices off the Miami site unless you have an account with them.
In regards to Ken having to do more work by approving new members, that is what he is doing now. Every new member has to go through an approval process. He was forced to do that to help eliminate spammers who used the automated sign up feature. Now its a manual feature and obviously it is working good since I haven't seen much spam around in a while.
I guess I need to be very careful of what I talk about and say on here from now on. I would hate to get burned by a comment I made that was copied and posted elsewhere. ;D
Chris
I think a pro section only would be a good feature to add to the forum. I agree with Bobbin that some people might come around by reading about pesky customers, thankfully they are few and far between at my shop. But I do have a few things that would be nice to talk about in a private setting, like Mojo mentions, things could get upsetting if some people were to think they were being talked about, even it they were never actually named. Even if we do get a pro section, I would leave naming names out of the conversation and just keep it general.
I would like to hear from Ken, Richard and Bobby on this matter. A Pro section would be awesome.
:)
Chris
Something else I noticed. At Carrscorner (where they have both public and private boards), visitors can't view member profiles. HERE, they can.
Quote from: Mojo on January 20, 2012, 04:35:58 am
95 % of my business comes from these forums.
That's interesting. I would estimate that very little (if any at all) of my business comes from discussion boards like this one.
I guess the RV crowd is way more into forums.
Technically, didn't we all start out here as lurkers?
Think back to when you first came on as a lurker. If all the "meaty" topics had been inaccessible to you, would you've stuck around?
I hope that if we DO get a private side, we'll keep most conversations public.
you could just get a new acount and used name and pm us who you are.
Me there a boating forum I've been on for years and a I'd always five advise on question a out van as upholstery care Ect and one day up north. Couple customer came in and said so tour mike. From the forum. Surprised me. Then after I moved to Florida one day a saleman saw my trialot pass by and saw the name. Googled it and a ton of info good came up from this boating forum of people
talking about my company name. So he called me and told me about it and got a new client.
There are tons of forums for people who have deep passions for something. The biggest forums are motorcycles, boats and RV's. I am a member of all three types. One RV forum I belong to has over 14,000 members.
My son owns a corporation that produces forum software. They are the largest producer now in the world and just his own corporate forum has over 100,000 members. Some of his clients have HUGE forums. Last I knew his customers included NASA, the NFL teams, The MBA teams, the NHL teams, Madonna, Janet Jackson, The Eagles, Yahoo, Blue Cross, NBC, etc. etc. Some of these forums are massive. You should see the post totals click after a game or concert or whatever. Some of these forums get 50 to a 100 posts per minute. Some even more. :)
Now what is funny is that the vast majority of my business comes from just two RV associations who have member forums around 2,000. This is where I make my presence felt and where I spend my time at. I haven't even touched some of the other ( larger ) RV associations because I can barely keep up with the business I currently have. Once things slow down a bit with these two I will start tapping into the other associations. I could do e-bay but would probably get clobbered so I stay clear of there.
Getting back to the original topic, we could just make the Business section of our forum a members only section and not create any more sections. Anything discussed business wise could be placed there.
Chris
I'd be in support of the "business" section being pro members only. Like Sofa says, I lurked for a bit before throwing in my 2 cents. If it were all private I'd never have bothered to try to register.
June
Yeah, that would work for me, too. The whole connotation of the word, "lurker" cracks me up, but most people do start out reading for awhile, I count myself in that august group, too. :)
hiya
Did i hear my name :-)
I know what Mojo is saying, I thought about that when setting up my forum and the pro section.
if you google anyone these days everything they have ever posted can get flagged up.
And after this post it seems it was a good idea, I mainly thought of it because if some pricing issues were discussed
I wouldn't want a customer coming to me and saying 'Well you only pay this much because I saw it on your forum'
If you go look at http://www.snuggtopz.com ( click the forum link )you can see the main pages as a guest
or a newly registered member but until I register you as a pro then the top 2 boards remain hidden.
It does require a bit of time by an admin to varify who you are registering as a pro though, have you seen
how many members are on here :-)
Rich
Couldn't you just grandfather everyone here and then start the process ? I do not know as I have never gotten into the bones of these programs.
I am a moderator at a large motorcycle forum and I know the outside of the program but the guts I do not.
Chris
well maybe but I dont have that level of access Mojo.
Hdflame is the guy ... someone wake him up :-)
I'd be for the buisness forum thing also that sounds like what it is for.
Just wondering how would the admin see if a member is a pro call a buisness number a d see if it is the person. Would a website or buisness number do it.
Quote from: Mike on January 21, 2012, 04:18:53 pm
Jet wondering how would thebadkin see if a member is a pro call a buisness number a d see if it is the person. Would a w site or buisness number do it.
That would be the hard part. Even if all of US are grandfathered in, future registrants would have to be verified as pros. That could be time consuming.
One way to expedite the process would be if a current member vouches for them.
This site has been instrumental to me learning this trade. I am in no way a proffessional upholsterer. If I started out to list all of the things I have learned from this site I would run out of space, for that I am gratefull to each and everyone of you that has freely given advice. I have spent nearly 2 years fowllowing the most important advice I have been given, sew, sew, sew. My greatgrandfather was an upholsterer, my great uncle took over his shop in the 60s, my grandmother, and mother were seamstresses. I worked in the shop when I was a kid. Learning this trade is, as goofy as it sounds is a sentimental undertaking for me. I never had the opportunity to work in the shop as an adult. That is where this site came in.
I am also mostly a lurker. Sometimes I will come and post out of a desire to contribute something back to the board, or to ask a question. Mostly though the questions I have had can be answered by a search. Believe it or not I have read every post since I have become a member, and many from before. I sometimes have to read a couple hours to catchup.
I also have come to know the regular members of this board in a way and I have the utmost respect all of your accomplishments and your opinions especially the marketing and business accumen that you posess in particular Mojo.
All of that being said I guess my point is that this board has been important to me for many reasons, and it worries me that this information would be resricted because I am not a pro. My hope is that with practice I can become a pro. As Darren often says just my 2 cents.
Quote from: hidebound on January 22, 2012, 08:24:48 am
All of that being said I guess my point is that this board has been important to me for many reasons, and it worries me that this information would be restricted because I am not a pro. My hope is that with practice I can become a pro.
Hidebound makes a good point.
I would hope that if we do get a private side, we would only use it to discuss wholesale "trade only" pricing (which is on "life support" these days IMHO), or business strategies that might be misconstrued as "shrewd" by the general public.
good point somehow one like hidabound who wantsto learn the trade and dosent comsider hthem self a pro would still like to get info in pricing to start out . like a new upstart under bidding oldtimers and cutting himself short doing so is not good for anyone.
Great Topic.
I think there should be a private site here on our forum that would be available to the "next level" of interest.
This level would include the "true pros" of our trade and those who are aspiring to become pros.
How do we determine the level of competence to become a pro .........we can't. That is the curse of being in an unstructured industry like upholstery. We do not have testable knowledge and standards like plumbing and electricity. As I have been told, we are a "hand craft" and what ever the lowest level of competence that consumers are willing to pay for is the standards that all shop owners have to defend their standards (and prices) against.
In my opinion, the only way to keep separate the "Joes" from the "Pros" would be some type of membership dues......$20 -$30/ year. This would be enough money to intimidate most people that did not want to invest the time and effort into the understanding the real 'nuts and bolts" of our industry but not enough money to keep the "serious students from talking to the professors".
Steve Terry, 2nd Generation Upholsterer & owner of Retro Modern Contract Fabrics
THE problem I see with a pay site is anytime I've been on a site be it a bike site a boating site if there comes a dues many dissappere.
Here if there was a fee how many pros would dissapere just because why pay , And without pros to awnser newbies questions who may purchase from kens website they may dry up also with fees participants that is
It's as on carrs site there wasn't much for me so. I did post much so I was deleted was there a fee i don't know but if there is I'm not going to find out
Quote from: Mike on January 22, 2012, 03:59:59 pm
It's as on carrs site there wasn't much for me so. I did post much so I was deleted was there a Dee I don't know but if there is I'm not going to find out
You're still listed in the member's list at Carrs, so I don't think you've been deleted there.
Some logins automatically lock you out if you enter your password incorrectly 3 times in a row. Is it possible that happened? You know, you DO have a
slight tendency to hit the wrong keys. ;D
I know I have no right to say anything on this site because I'm not a pro, just a DIY'er
for myself, but I have learned a LOT of information here on the craft of upholstery.
I for one would miss hearing all the ins and outs of the business end. I truly hope
you will put up with me on your wonderful site, otherwise I will be quite sad!
:'(
I think some are misunderstanding the intent of a Pro Section. It is for stitchers at any level. All it does is prevent customers from coming in and being able to gather information on our pricing strategies, wholesale pricing, etc.
Lurkers, newbies to the trade and old pro's can all share info under the " Pro's Section". Heck I do not consider myself a Pro just a stitcher. :) Maybe a better name should be sued to include all stitchers at any level such as The Stichers Section or whatever.
But the intent of this section is just to keep customers from gathering info on our operations. If a customer wants to come on, register and lie about being an upholsterer then there is little that can be done. But right now it is way to easy for customers and others to gain info off this site. I no longer discuss pricing strategies here on the forum for this same reason. I do not talk anymore about my margins, percentages or wholesale prices. I just had a customer visit this site and collect data on me. I do not need another customer coming on here and gathering my pricing strategies only to use it later against me.
That is why I suggested a private section so we can share some of this info.
Chris
Quote from: sterry56 on January 22, 2012, 03:12:50 pm
the only way to keep separate the "Joes" from the "Pros" would be some type of membership dues......$20 -$30/ year.
That'd be awesome! I feel like I spend way to much time on here, so to get paid for it would be great!
;)
I agree with you mojo I wouldn't mind a private buisness section at all and would pony up.
It just anytime I've seen a fee turn up on a forum it died. If it could be implemented without one I would be for it. I don't know the expence issues.
Quote from: CKKC on January 22, 2012, 04:16:02 pm
I know I have no right to say anything on this site because I'm not a pro, just a DIY'er
for myself, but I have learned a LOT of information here on the craft of upholstery.
I for one would miss hearing all the ins and outs of the business end. I truly hope
you will put up with me on your wonderful site, otherwise I will be quite sad!
:'(
Isn't the site already set up to stay incognito, if you wish, with out a "pro only room". If I didn't post my web site, And put as little info as possible on my profile. And gave as little info as possible about my location on the posts. Who would ever know who I was.
Chris, Denis, both Mikes, June, Gene, Daren to name a few. I know your first names but haven't a clue your last. And Bobbin I consider you a good friend but I know neither you first or last. I know where most of you live but only because you told me through you post's. I may be wrong but if you truly wanted to be incognito it wouldn't be that hard. Maybe to late for some of us but I would hate to exclude any one from our conservations be they general or business.
Quote from: Mike on January 22, 2012, 06:22:32 pm
I agree with you mojo I wouldn't mind a private buisness section at all and would pony up.
It just anytime I've seen a fee turn up on a forum it died. If it could be implemented without one I would be for it. I don't know the expence issues.
I was just joking in my earlier post, but I would never (ever, ever) pay to be on a forum of any kind. Being asked to pay a fee would be the last you saw of me.
I think I understand the point of a private section. I am just speaking from a different perspective. Sofa in a different post mentioned ordering a couple of extra yards on a com job and wondered if that shouldnt be something that is private and I think I agree. I have also been suprised to see some information given out here that I would consider sensitive. If I am misunderstanding its because I have been to Carrs site and I dont qualify for their private side without being dishonest. I certainly understand a section where people like me would have to be serious enough to do something to be invited to a private section.
My 2c worth.
I hate forums with millions of sub divisions. I believe one of the reasons this one is successful is because we are all lumped in together, if there is a topic that doesn't interest you, you just don't read it.
On the flip side if a some one in a trade that you wouldn't normally go looking at posts something that grabs your eye ( ie car stuff for me) you can have a nosy at something that you wouldn't normally go looking for & in the process possibly learn something.
Personally I would think that simply making the business of upholstery ' members only' would be quite sufficient. For those that wish to use it.
Then I don't talk about prices as there are 'few' ? members in my area to compare with, We can all whine about customers just don't be to specific & as two worrying about what you put out on the World Wide Web. Well !
I just always remember that any body could be reading it, or looking at the pictures. Simples :D
:-* Suzi
Guys what you all forget if a customer gets to your post using a search engine they will go right around any limited access forum you set up. I'd like to listen to what others that are knowledgeable on the subject have to say but I think I'm correct.
Quote from: BigJohn on January 23, 2012, 10:18:30 am
Guys what you all forget if a customer gets to your post using a search engine they will go right around any limited access forum you set up. I'd like to listen to what others that are knowledgeable on the subject have to say but I think I'm correct.
Good point Big John. I'm not a member of Carr"s Corner but I do frequent it. How do they select their members only section? Whats to keep any Tom, Dick or Henrietta from joining?
June or ken (oops almost forgot Bobby)would probably have an answer for you Big John.
I have to agree with Suzi and the others that believe that we all appreciate that what we say
could be read by anyone and that we all write accordingly.
QuoteAll it does is prevent customers from coming in and being able to gather information on our pricing strategies
I see the other side of that coin:If I tell someone that a job takes x hrs and they think that just bending some tubing and sewing some canvas on it should only take a couple of hours--- I'd far sooner them research it her and find me right than catching that You tube vid of the African American chap who was explaining how to make a bimini from ABS pipe etc... in his back yard for <$200. (we have to dig that link back up-- it was hilarious!!). If I say it'll be 10 yard and they don't believe me--they can hear it here. I'd almost go so far as to say that their attendance here is an excellent opportunity to educate/inform them.
That said, and having had this brought to our attention; we have the resources to PM each other as per ????? what a tee nut costs in North Dakota vs. Saskatchewan.Ten percent of "I don't know" is the same as 20% of "I have no idea" so the guy in Regina can't try to bully you for the price in Minot.
The photos and feed back of our respective works are also a valuable referral.
I say let them come---- We all have seen that your work rocks Mojo and that you are unfair to yourself cartwheeling for your customers-- let 'em peek up your nighty 8) and we'll tell them.
i know what you meen Suzi i used to be a on a forum at the lake i used to live there was on forum and everyone would check in on one board then later on it got all sebmented and interest was lost and post were missed much like i never used to look at the green room here.
i dont see hwhere any bad info could be had here on mojo if i had a motorhome im sure id rather have his work as he doese it all the time and is good at it. i happened to look up a cutomer myself and foud out his story too
really no bigie i just dont talk whosale either and i dont list retail on a invoice either
Mike and Darren make good points Mojo. I've never seen your work but I have great respect for it just from the posts I've read on the forum. If I were you I would have no shame in what you have written on here. You would be "MY" first choice in awning work.
First off let me say thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it as I lack confidence sometimes and need a kick in the ass and a boost of confidence.
In regards to making the business section a members only spot ( with no bloody fee mind you ) I was thinking it would give us a place to discuss things that there is NO WAY I want a customer to read. How many of us want customers to know our margins ? Prices we pay for materials ? Mark ups we make on fabric ? If one of my customers got a hold of this info it would be re-posted and in front of thousands of potential customers in a days time on RV forums.
Guess what happens next ? I start getting customers trying to beat the hell out of my price based on what they read. No frigging way am I going to discuss prices in an open forum like this. That is why I said that maybe we could have just one section ( and it makes sense to do this with the business section ) where only members are allowed. If we did that with the business section then we would not have to add more sections to the forum. Just convert it.
Actually right now I have some things I wanted to discuss with all of you and get your input but it has to do with pricing and margins and I am not willing to share that with the world. :)
I do not know how hard it would be to make the business section a closed part of the forum for just us members. Is Ken still alive ? Did Bobby get kidnapped ? I still haven't seen their comments on this subject. Lets call out the Marines to find these guys......lol.... ;D
Chris
Darren suggested the PM route. I wonder if there is a way to send out mass PM's? Just like with your regular e-mail address book? I know you can create a "buddy list" in your profile section. Is there a way to send a blanket PM to everyone on your buddy list? Of course, all conversations would be one-on-one, instead of a group discussion.
I understand your predicament with RV'ers being so "forum savvy".
In the couch biz, most of my customers have already found fabric online cheaper than I can get it. Then they call me asking if I can beat $9.95 yd.
Maybe WE should infiltrate THEIR forums. :D
Y sofa they would call it spamming
Just bringing this up for my two pennies worth;
I think it would be a mistake having a private sub forum. I'm a member of staff on a forum with over 200K members that has over 200K topics with 6 million plus posts. We have a private area, and these guys actually pay for the privilege. It's my experience that once the users gain access to the private area their posting in the public area becomes less frequent and in turn lowers the quality of the public area because those whom stick to the private areas tend to be the most informative.
And another thing..
I went out & joined a club which professed to be a 'guild' of ...... better not say, but sewing oriented. ;) UK based.
Well the membership included their quarterly magazine & the 'secret changing password' which was sent out with the mag.
Well the magazine was OK, there was at least one thing in each edition which was of interest to me & it is one of very few in that field, but the super special membership only forum. One of the reasons I signed up ! Was complete *hite.
Very few posters at all, I made a comment about opening up some of it to 'the public' which didn't receive one single comment even though the people running the thing had been on writing about other things.
Very disappointed, I thought it had great potential & guess what, I didn't renew.
Suzi
I won't belong to any organization that would have me as a member.
Groucho Marx
Quote from: Grebo on February 10, 2012, 06:50:05 am
And another thing..
I went out & joined a club which professed to be a 'guild' of ...... better not say, but sewing oriented. ;) UK based.
Well the membership included their quarterly magazine & the 'secret changing password' which was sent out with the mag.
Well the magazine was OK, there was at least one thing in each edition which was of interest to me & it is one of very few in that field, but the super special membership only forum. One of the reasons I signed up ! Was complete *hite.
Very few posters at all, I made a comment about opening up some of it to 'the public' which didn't receive one single comment even though the people running the thing had been on writing about other things.
Very disappointed, I thought it had great potential & guess what, I didn't renew.
Suzi